Allow folders in Pages

[hasti]

The Files section of Canvas allows folders for organizing files. Pages does not. Why the awful inconsistency in the user interface? I currently have 30+ pages that I've created in - all in flat directory structure. I'd like to be able to organize them, you know, like Files and stuff I have on my computer.

Comments from Instructure

Please refer to the update from the product team here. 

[kmeeusen]

Hi  @garrett_william  

Thank you for adding your naming convention to your explanation of your course structure.

When I first looked at your model I recognized that many folks, including myself, had experimented with that type of course design structure but found maintenance and revision to be much too challenging. Your naming convention take out much of that challenge.  The only real drawback I see is that the naming is not logically descriptive of the item content which could be an accessibility issue for many students; and actually, with many faculty or IDs wanting to revise the course content.

I must explore further.....................

Kelley

[garrett_william]

I admit there are some pitfalls. This process can always be improved and I'm open to ideas.The naming conventions could be expanded if the hyperlinks could be maintained when you update the name of a page or assignment. One thing this approach does do is make sure the courses are built consistently across our program. Every icon has an alt tag and opens in a new tab. Students and teachers are able to use the titles as shorthand, too. Each page has very structured detail (titles, purpose statements and agenda for the lesson, help text, etc.) that explains the lesson. Assignments, Discussions and Questions all have the generic naming convention plus a detailed title because they do not have to be hyperlinked. This is not pictured above because I just started assembling the course. The only image hyperlinks I have to fix are the ones that point to the final assessment and presentations because I created menu icons for them. We use one presentation page per module and repeat them for each lesson path. We can do this because we build our presentations in Articulate Storyline (it allows for multiple lessons/ interactive slide decks):

[ronmarx]

Nice illustrations,  @garrett_william ‌! Many of us have been long flustered by the lack of hierarchal filing structure within Canvas without the need to develop workarounds. Thank you for joining this long-standing conversation. From the first time I used Canvas, I could not for the life of me understand why it used a flat file system for storing pages when it used a contextual system for Files, and to a slightly lesser degree Assignments. Obviously, this made me wonder why Modules weren't independent, nest-able objects that contain grouped parts that could be repurposed and used in other modules as lesson component sets. The https://community.canvaslms.com/ideas/4636-modules-within-modules  idea that still lives in the Community is very close in purpose to what is suggested here with Folders.

Just as best practice GUI/UI mimics objects and routines from the real world, best practice LMS UI follows the OS usage conventions that have developed over the past 20 years. Objects like modules should act like folders and should be able to hold sub-modules. Storage areas for pages and assignments and question banks should have folders to help their organization. Canvas items like OS objects should be accessible for multiple selection, https://community.canvaslms.com/ideas/5941 .

I can think of a dozen community members here who should participate in the next Canvas Khaki event, but the idea is beginning to form in my mind that the company is more comfortable when the development discussions are more like an echo chamber. Here's to the next Khaki event, and that my idea is wrong.

Cheers,

i.Ron

[garrett_william]

Thanks Ron! I totally agree with the need for nesting. I am happy to report that my vote was already recorded for the modules idea. It would be a huge improvement to the way I construct my lesson paths in the example above. Being able to nest a set of lesson modules under a major header would be awesome.

As for consistency and structure, I am amusingly disorganized in the physical world. I am, however, downright obsessed with organization and structure in the digital world. The more time spent on tech workarounds means less time on content development and instruction. These inconsistencies are somewhat maddening because I to used tell my teachers if they find themselves teaching more technology than content then they need to pull back on the technology. 

Side note, one may ask, "how far behind are we?" Well we still, in 2018, cannot select and delete multiple items at a time. Shift and control keys were made for this type of thing. I do believe it works in Files so that would be a win for introducing folder structuring elsewhere Canvas.

[laurakgibbs]

If I knew then what I now know, I would have been a much better contributor to Project Khaki last time,  @ronmarx ‌! I remember asking Mitch Benson what kinds of plans they had on the content side, and I didn't get any kind of response from him (he seemed honestly surprised by the question). I should have had a set of talking points ready to go, a kind of elevator-pitch for why it's time to focus on content, ha ha. Of course, back then they were still wrestling with a lot of gradebook and quiz issues... but now I think is the time! And I'm pinging carroll-ccsd‌ here because he would be a great spokesperson for the intersection of content and analytics. It's the intersection with analytics that I suspect would be the strongest motivating factor for Instructure to finally think about investing in content development improvements.

[robotcars]

I have read this entire thread today, mostly while standing in line for a workshop at AWS re:Invent. I have gleaned that  @hasti ‌ simply wants an organizational structure of related items in Course Pages management and nothing to do with how course content is organized for students. I also agree that pages and folders in pages aren't designed for instruction as they are currently provided, the way Modules are... regarding progression, completion, prereq, etc. So I will mostly stick to Beck's topic and request.

There are several comments by  @dwillmore ,  @jonesn16 ‌ that I like, and I find myself agreeing with  @jared  #comment-84587 for the rest.

If the purpose for the instructor or designer is to organize related items in the pages area, then folders make sense, so do tags. I'd also make the suggestion that the Pages page, could be broken up so that are unstructured (unassociated to modules and lessons), and pages that belong to a module could be sorted as such, automatically based on association.

Pages

• Course Home Page
• About Your Teacher
  ---------------------------------

• Module 1
  •  A page
• Module 2
  • Another page

It seems like this would require no architectural change, but a UI update.

When I created a CMS several years ago, I helped users editing pages by letting them know that if they were editing a page, where that page was published (the URL), any pages that linked to that page (within the CMS), and any images on that page that were also used on other pages. It seems like that would alleviate the 'files associated to this page' issue, and ensure that if you replace a file for this page, that you are notified of its use and breaking on another page.

Another possibility, would be to symbolize pages and modules within the Canvas file structure and allow them to be sorted and moved. The instructor or designer can visually manage the 'objects'. Pages would still be a list of all pages in the course, just like Quizzes are listed on Quizzes and People listed on People.

On analytics and content... I'm sympathetic to the fact that most instructors are not web designers, but have also found that the combination of a WYSIWYG editor and the lack of HTML and web design fundamentals is pretty detrimental to quality designed content for students... and that we'd benefit from hiding the RCE's table button from users until they achieved some design badge or their content is tabular...that should be a permission. :smileydevil: Treating the RCE like Word is not content design, and I see those habits far too often with instructors who are told to teach online but don't understand the web or its design theories. https://community.canvaslms.com/ideas/12764-course-level-css-stylesheet" modifiedtitle="true" title=..., seems like the single best improvement to the RCE that Canvas could provide. Good design doesn't exist in style="" attributes. Many things can be achieved by providing a separation of the HTML and CSS, and it's good for the long term progress of turning online educators into web designers, because that's their medium.

Getting content online without consideration for the devices, screen sizes, connection speeds, and accessibility for all users is a practice that most instructors aren't trained with, and never consider; while Canvas hasn't provided the tools to handle it easily for everyone. Looking at Wordpress and all other systems for designing web content, they compete, fall short, fail, and are replaced often. I think this is why Canvas has focused on quality education tools and not just the editor. I hope they will get to it, but I also expect them to do so with consideration and best practices for content designed for students.

As much as I struggle with feeling like Canvas still has their team on the bench for content design features, I also think they are probably analyzing, testing and evaluating what design patterns work best, what survives, and the user experience they provide; along with the tools they can utilize to achieve that. At least I hope they are. If they have chosen not to implement something or keep things simple for now it's probably to prevent bad habits and delay further development because they moved too fast, or because they understand that most are winging it.

[kimberly_smith1]

Hello  @Renee_Carney  ,

Surprisingly, this is the first time I have come across this feature idea - but I love it!

With so many votes, it seems likely to be meeting the new threshold for consideration of "in the top 10%"?  @hasti   mentions this idea having been put 'on hold' back in March, but is now 'open for voting' again. Might we view that as some kind of signal that Canvas is considering its implementation?

[hasti]

Yes,  @Renee_Carney  please!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Not only is this "in the top 10%", it is the top idea period, full stop. Please, please, please, Canvas do something about this idea which clearly has strong support. Especially since Canvas refuses to fix the issue of not all pages loading unless you resize your screen. (Note: ignore the title of that page - it's not just 4K+ monitors, it's all monitors; Canvas has been aware of the issue for over two years and, as the last post in the reply section indicates, has no plans of fixing it.)

[laurakgibbs]

carroll-ccsd‌ thanks for chiming in! I wish that Instructure had the same adventurous and evolving approach to content that we see at WordPress. It's exactly because I do NOT see anything like that at Instructure that I do all my content development with other tools. I'm not really confident that Instructure has put any kind of priority on content development except insofar as they are looking at accessibility and mobile. Beyond that, I don't see a lot going on, and there is so much that needs to be doing on. (I consider the failure of global search to be systematic of really big problems they face in terms of their legacy system and poor decisions made about content early on.)

About content development and metadata, have you seen this project: HAX...? In my opinion, this is exactly the kind of thing Instructure should be looking into and possibly collaborating with, especially if they are serious about OER content development.

HAX: Headless Authoring Experience (HAX)

Article at Inside Higher Ed:

https://www.insidehighered.com/digital-learning/article/2018/06/13/open-source-tool-aims-make-online... 

[SHEBENE]

HAX does sound interesting! Thanks for the link.

[robotcars]

HAX does look good. I didn't have time to watch the second 40 minute video, but I'll be looking more into it soon.

Thanks for sharing laurakgibbs!

[frederick_smith]

Just thinking two days ago how great this would be.  Thank you for proposing it!

[uwe_richter]

Thank you for reviving this idea - especially for comprehensive courses such as distance and work-based learning deliveries and year-long courses with loads of pages having a way to organise them (besides a naming convention) would be great. 

[jdick1]

Commenting to hopefully keep this feature request trending. My current cheat is using a numbered outline system in page titles to keep them in some semblance of order, but this system fails when content is not being developed in chronological order (for various reasons) or for those courses where there is no linear progression. (I have some faculty who have very strong feelings about providing students with a false sense of linearity of concepts, which I can understand.)

Being able to wrangle groups of pages in folders would help alleviate this issue.

[deppeler]

Numbering page names to keep organized brought me back to my first programs that looked something like this:

10 X = 3

20 Y = 5

30 PRINT X + Y

Tips: Be sure to zero pad or start at 10, or 100, or 1000 and leave enough gap between numbers so that you can insert new numbers (pages) in between and be sure to choose a large enough number (3 or 4 digit numbers) to ensure earlier pages can be placed correctly.

This should work:

W001.010 stuff for first lecture of week 1

W002.010 stuff for first lecture of week 2

W003.030 stuff for third lecture of week 3

W010.050 stuff for fifth lecture of week 10

...

Of course, this system does not help the slow page loading for users with many pages.

REMINDER: this is not about what I provide to students, I use MODULES with links to assignments, pages, files, etc for students. This is about how I organize content within my course for myselt.

FINAL REMINDER: I am aware that I am not supposed to use my Canvas course to develop course content. I have gotten the message loud and clear.

Canvas a course management tool not a course content development tool.

Back to writing my final exam questions (anywhere but Canvas)

Carry on!

-Deb

[laurakgibbs]

remembering to use leading zeros: it's a superpower! 🙂

but I still hope they will fix this problem so that we don't have to remember to use leading zeros all the time.

[ronmarx]

 @deppeler , while I agree with your wise reminder that Canvas's focus should be as "a course management tool not a course content development tool," it's easy to get sucked into creating content because of convenience. There are so many course management functions that are superficially addressed or outright ignored they fill the pages of this Community forum. If only the product strategy team at Instructure would realign their vision with their users' requests. These requests directly and strongly represent how an LMS is optimally used in a K-20 educational setting.

https://community.canvaslms.com/ideas/2086-create-question-banks-from-msword 

https://community.canvaslms.com/ideas/7532-allow-folders-in-pages 

https://community.canvaslms.com/ideas/4636-modules-within-modules?sr=search&searchId=7f68d088-7bb4-4... 

https://community.canvaslms.com/ideas/11477 

Selecting Multiple Content Items in Modules

https://community.canvaslms.com/ideas/12350-simplify-rubrics-look-and-operation 

[GideonWilliams]

Entirely agree with Debra's assessment of content creation :O)

I would expect to see a range of tools that allows effective content creation be they bespoke or offering integration opportunities with other systems.

When our school chose Canvas VLE it was most definitely not on the basis of providing course management tools. We already had a Shared drive with the ability to add folders/subfolders. We have Office365 and could set up Microsoft Classroom and Teams for free!

What sold Canvas for us were all the other features eg pages, quizzes, announcements, peer assignments, rubrics etc. If I am honest, every VLE I have reviewed and chosen has been on the basis of the features that allow our staff to blend together digital with everyday practice to enhance learning or to replace activities that work far more effective in the digital domain.

I want a system that works with our day to day classroom practice. I am after far more than a course management system. The irony is that with our managed information system (SIMS), there isn't an effective integration that helps manage our courses and we have to do this ourselves!

I would always hope that pedagogy features very high on a list of requirements when developing and improving virtual learning system / learning management system. So many of the ideas that garner many votes are suggested on that basis!  

Whilst I am also all for debate, I do wonder why Instructure don''t simply make a decision on this Idea? I sense an increasing amount of frustration with every post.

[garrett_william]

Course management and content development are intertwined. Ultimately, the end user should be able to decide what balance they want when developing inside of Canvas. We use a lot of different tools (Articulate, Google, etc) to develop our content. I, however, want it to live and breathe inside of Canvas. For this reason, we develop pages that offer menus for easier navigation and content viewing. Ultimately, if the user wants to use all of Canvas to "create" then they should be supported in doing that. You create assignments, you create quizzes and you certainly can create as many pages as you want or deem necessary. Ultimately, you hope sound instructional design is being followed when people assemble their courses. Telling end users, "In Canvas you CAN do this, but you REALLY shouldn't do this" seems ridiculous. If a user is in it for the long haul then they should expect the content development tools that exist in Canvas to be supported and improved. This also means the systems that manage these tools should be improved. Course creators should be supported with better organization tools for pages and modules and better search tools across the entire system. And last but not least, the UI within each part of Canvas should be more consistent so that it is easier to teach and learn.

https://community.canvaslms.com/ideas/11902-admin-permission-to-prevent-or-hide-export-copy-delete-i... 

https://community.canvaslms.com/ideas/12784-consistent-menu-options-for-assignments-and-discussions"...

https://community.canvaslms.com/ideas/12695-add-speedgrader-back-to-the-assignment-drop-down-menu 

https://community.canvaslms.com/ideas/5694-default-font-adjustment-for-wysiwyg-text-entry" modifiedt...

https://community.canvaslms.com/ideas/4636-modules-within-modules 

[GideonWilliams]

Brilliant!

https://community.canvaslms.com/ideas/8810-use-of-stylus-with-docviewer?sr=search&searchId=be0fe4c9-...‌

https://community.canvaslms.com/ideas/5319-hiding-and-viewing-modules-for-individual-sections?sr=sea...‌

https://community.canvaslms.com/ideas/5123-create-a-student-accessible-rubric-for-self-assessments?s...‌

https://community.canvaslms.com/ideas/8865-office365-phase-2-part-1?sr=search&searchId=fc7c9191-d75f...‌

13 Features I wish were in Quizzes.next‌