Allow folders in Pages

(257)

The Files section of Canvas allows folders for organizing files. Pages does not. Why the awful inconsistency in the user interface? I currently have 30+ pages that I've created in - all in flat directory structure. I'd like to be able to organize them, you know, like Files and stuff I have on my computer.

 
Comments from Instructure

Please refer to the update from the product team here

406 Comments
laurakgibbs
Community Champion

The consistency argument is why I am hopeful that there might a folders-for-pages solution, simply because the Files area does allow that.

Ideally, Instructure would take a step back and ask about content-development-and-support as something to explore starting from scratch, committing to rebuilding the Files and Pages areas so that they are not separated but integrated. The fact that they are separate is just a relic of the old software design, and it just doesn't make sense.

That's a real problem with software, though. You can be stuck with a legacy and not be able to move forward. Someone here mentioned Google Sites: I really have to admire them for completely chucking the old version of Google Sites and building something new from scratch. They also built a migration tool to help move the content, but it's hard since a lot of the features of the new Google Sites are based on completely different assumptions than the old sites. And, even more sadly, I think they are going to be deleting all the old sites next year... although I hope Internet Archive might partner with them to save all that content in the Wayback Machine.

Anyway, my guess is that folders-for-pages is the best we can hope for, and it's better than nothing.

benjamin_rodrig
Community Contributor

You guys have persuaded me. I think this would be a good feature to add (so I voted this up). Just having the option to organize your pages in the pages index, and seeing that same org structure in the content selector as well as in the "add to module" function is worth while. If you have dozens of pages in your course, it is probably a real hassle to search through them to find just the ones you need.

calliso4
Community Member

The Module and Page indentation option allows organization of information that remains accessible to students using screen readers, and those facing cognitive impacts that make digging through folders difficult. Keep the flat structure, use indent and increase access to many student populations. 

jeremy_winn
Community Member

I haven't voted either way, but I am leaning towards voting down.  In general I am an advocate of options and think that if you don't like an option, just don't use it, but that's no reason not to let others have it.  Having said that, I see this as an important exception and I wonder if people have really considered the implications this would have for the student experience with Canvas.

Having used other LMS as a student, folders were THE WORST.  As the instructor, of course you understand the way you've organized things and so it only makes good sense to have folders available to you.  But on the student side, the lack of folders is GREAT.  Everything is out, no rummaging through folders to make sure you haven't missed important instructions or assignments.  Course organization is consistently one of the most important things to students, and subfolder schemes obfuscate course organization tremendously.  Think on that for a second-- not using folders is already best practice (in the vast majority of situations).  The teacher has to think about how best to present their information with these limitations in a way that will make sense for both teacher and student.  

Folders would completely negate the need for that thoughtfulness, and as an admin I would probably disable the feature if at all possible simply to promote best practice.  I would be happy for people with a genuine need for this to have it, but so many faculty would see that option and think that it SHOULD be used, and the student experience would suffer significantly.

I think the value for instructors is obvious, but if students were voting on this feature, it would get a huge thumbs down, for good reason.

matthewthomas
Community Participant

Hi Jeremy,

My understanding is that the request is for instructors to have to ability to organize Pages into folders from their side, not for students' use. For example, I have courses with 100+ Pages, and it would greatly simplify my life to be able to have the Pages organized into folders in order to find them more quickly (rather than scrolling endlessly in the Page picker). I would not use folders in Modules or anywhere else for students to access. I agree that that would be confusing/counterproductive.

-Matt Thomas

jeremy_winn
Community Member

Ah, I understand what you mean, Matt-- only in the Pages interface.  I always create Pages through the Modules section so I have never encountered that issue, however, I can see how that would be valuable for teachers and not impact the student experience.  Thanks for clarifying!

deppeler
Community Explorer

I agree Matt.  Having folders be an option for instructors should not mean that other instructors are required to use folders for their student page views.   I am having trouble understanding why so many are failing to see this distinction with how different instructors use Canvas.  

wendy_fletcher
Community Novice

In my situation I would like folders NOT  because I want students to have to see them, indeed I would keep them hidden as I teach young students ( 4 years +) who would certainly not cope with searching through folders BUT as the designer/teacher I have a LOT of pages, to find them I have to scroll down through many,many pages waiting for each group to load which wastes a lot of my time. I tend not to use modules much as my course is choice based, the linear structure of the module doesn't suit how it operates , I build my own simple navigation for my students.  I quite agree that folders are not a great option for students so your list and indent comment works fine there but there is a quite different issue, with teachers/designers with lots of pages wanting something better than a flat list without a search facility to optimise their own organisation within a course.

jonesn16
Community Champion

As one of the people who voted this down, perhaps I can try to explain myself. I voted it down because the original proposal doesn't make the distinction that you are making. I am fully in support of providing ways to organize and manage all the Pages that instructors create. I adamantly don't want that solution to end up being misused as a worse alternative to the Modules functionality in Canvas. 

Another reason I voted it down is because I don't think Pages and Files need to act the same. Unlike the original idea, I don't see any inconsistency here because Files and Pages represent fundamentally different things. Files are objects you create outside of Canvas using other tools, like Word documents, PDF's, recordings from Zoom, etc. Pages are things that you create using Canvas.

laurakgibbs
Community Champion

Files are content.

Pages are content.

Having two totally different interfaces to manage content makes no sense IMO.

But lack of folders is the least of it. What we really need is a total review of content development and maintenance options in Canvas; right now it's a hodge-podge inherited from the original Canvas design.

After the enormous resources that have been poured into quizzes and gradebook, I sure wish there would be a serious conversation about content.

Including student-created content. 🙂

ronmarx
Community Contributor

Agreed, agreed, agreed!

jonesn16
Community Champion

You can certainly use both to deliver content to students, but in that sense Assignments, Quizzes, and Discussions would be content as well. They all could be used to deliver information to students. And I desperately do not want Assignments, Discussions, and Quizzes to be buried in folders; I'm happy to not be using Blackboard anymore. If anything, I want Pages to be more clearly distinguished from Files than they are currently.

I work with many instructors who don't understand why they can't do certain things to Files that they can to Pages and vice versa. They don't get why they can't edit their Word document in Canvas. They don't get why a Page they created doesn't show up with their other PDF's. Pages are unique from anything in Files in that Pages are created and edited through Canvas itself. I believe making Pages and Files act more alike would only increase this confusion, not lessen it. I agree that content development and maintenance has room for improvement. I don't agree that this idea is the way to do it.

laurakgibbs
Community Champion

If you are looking for ways to help your instructors in their confusion, I think you are going to have to rely on ... education.

But that's the business we are in, right? 🙂

jonesn16
Community Champion

I believe we can we design systems and tools to make their functions clearer. But then again, I'm an instructional designer. :smileysilly:

laurakgibbs
Community Champion

And if the function of Pages is for people to create content, potentially lots of content, then adding folders into the interface makes that function more clear.

By not having folders to organize the Pages, you are conveying the message that people should not be creating a lot of content with the Pages tool.

Just speaking for myself, I don't think that's the right message to communicate.

garrett_william
Community Participant

Many of you have put forward some great ideas while debating pages and the need for some type of folder system. I think a lot of it boils down to consistency and ease of use. 

With that in mind I have two corresponding feature idea open for voting:

https://community.canvaslms.com/ideas/12784-consistent-menu-options-for-assignments-and-discussions 

https://community.canvaslms.com/ideas/12695-add-speedgrader-back-to-the-assignment-drop-down-menu 

I love our community and hope to garner your votes on these ideas. Thanks!

jonesn16
Community Champion

What you wrote really nailed the point for me as to why I'm stuck on my "no" vote. Because here's how I would've written it:

If the function of Pages is for people to create content, potentially lots of content, then we need to offer clear, intuitive ways to manage that content.

By not having clear, intuitive ways to organize the Pages, you are conveying the message that people should not be creating a lot of content with the Pages tool.

I think that's really it. I'm not convinced that there is folder-shaped hole in the puzzle of how to manage Pages, although I agree with you that there is a hole. Personally, I really resonate with what you've written in other places, that this is an opportunity for Instructure to take a step back and re-evaluate content creation/management. I would love to see them invest the amount of time and resources that they've given to Quizzes.Next or the Gradebook to this.

garrett_william
Community Participant

Canvas engineers don't have to reinvent to wheel. The just need to make Pages function in a similar way to the Assignments section of Canvas. Search plus grouping options. Making it similar would probably be more doable because the current set up has more in common with Assignments than Files. It would also be more intuitive because we've already been exposed to this type of organization.

On another note, Pages are essential because they allow you to create your own menus and learning paths. If Canvas was modules and nothing more it would read like a checklist of to-do items without context. We may be in the minority but we hide the modules page on our new courses and have GUI navigation pattern. The modules page provides the skeleton or structure of this pattern. We then create Pages that help people navigate to different modules and lessons. Each module and lesson has a page that explains the content students will learn. The students then uses the sideways arrow nav to navigate to their presentation, assignment and lessons. When the student completes the lesson, they encounter a completion page that has the course navigation menu at the bottom so that they can decide their next move. Students really like it because it is graphic rich, engaging and similar to icon based navigations they experience on their phones. We couldn't do it without pages.

298830_Canvas Lesson Path.png

laurakgibbs
Community Champion

Wow,  @garrett_william ‌, that is such an ingenious solution to the mind-numbing monotony of the way the Modules page looks. That's actually why I use a course wiki, and it is very cool to see how it is possible to do that using Canvas Pages as a workaround instead. Very nice!

garrett_william
Community Participant

Thank you for the compliment. What's great about this approach is I have a course template that I start all new courses in. I use generic naming convention for images and pages to make development faster. So images are named Module1.png, Module2.png, etc and pages are named M1L1 Overview, M1L2 Overview, etc. I can then design new images and upload them to the course. Everything is replaced throughout without a hitch. The other benefit is all the hyperlinks from image to page remains intact. All our content is built in Google the text is ready to copy and paste in for each specific page and/or assignment. It has sped up course assembly to the point where I no longer have to hire someone to do it. I will say this, the last remaining bottle neck is quiz creation. It still takes forever and we can't afford a program like Respondus to do the work for us.