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Make late policy affect only attempts submitted after the due date/time

Make late policy affect only attempts submitted after the due date/time

(12)

Currently in the New Gradebook, instructors can set the gradebook so that late penalties are automatically deducted. It is unfortunate that in multiple-attempt quizzes for which only the highest-scored attempt is to count, penalties for late submissions can adversely affect scores from attempts that were on time.

 

For example, suppose a quiz has multiple attempts, and only the highest score is preserved in the gradebook. The instructor allows late attempts with an automatic deduction 25% per day. Prior to the deadline, a student earns a kept score of 75%. When the student attempts the quiz again a day late, he again earns a raw score of 75%. Instead of deducting 25% from the late submission, the gradebook deducts 25% from the kept score. Thus, even though student's highest attempt is the 75% earned before the deadline, his score is recorded as only 50%.

 

So, I am asking that late penalties apply individually to attempts. Once the attempt is adjusted automatically accordingly, then the gradebook should select or calculate the kept score based upon whatever rule has been set up (such as highest attempt).

42 Comments
morrisj1
Community Participant

Here's another example: A student has 5 attempts to take a quiz and Canvas is set to keep the highest score. The student earns a high score of 80% on the first four attempts before the due date, so 80% should be the lowest possible score she can earn on the quiz. She then goes back after the deadline to take the quiz as a review, scoring 100% but receiving a deduction of 50% for the last attempt being late. Instead of keeping the 80% score, Canvas erases the 80% score and replaces it with the 50% score (apparently because Canvas compares the raw scores and takes the highest one *before* applying any late penalties). This Canvas programming error is punishing exactly the responsible students in my classes who go back and try to learn from their mistakes. To be fair to my students, my only option is to spend hours combing through every late quiz submission in all of my classes and manually regrade all of the quizzes that Canvas has graded incorrectly.

I realize that this situation could be prevented by not having late penalties, but in this era of electronic instruction, it's very important for students to be motivated to stay on schedule; my classes simply can't work without this capability. When I contacted Canvas support (in September 2020) and gave them this exact example, they claimed that it wasn't a bug at all and saw no problem with an 80% being replaced by a 50%, even though the program says it will keep the highest score. They instead insisted that what I wanted was a "new feature". As many have aptly pointed out over a period of more than a year in this thread, this is a programming error and not a request for a new feature, as most reasonable people would agree that Canvas's way of applying late penalties in this circumstance makes no logical or pedagogical sense.  It is beyond frustrating that Canvas can't fix obvious programming errors like this on a reasonable time scale.

jacob_white
Community Participant

I'm using multiple attempts in New Quizzes using the "save highest score" option.  The problem arises when a student completes an assignment on time, and then re-attempts it after the due date.  I want my student's best possible score to appear in the gradebook.  If a student got 90% with an on-time submission, and then has a 2nd attempt well after the due date that is 100%, New Quizzes saves the 100%, sends it to the gradebook THEN applies the late penalty, which changes the 90% to to 50%.  There are a couple possible possible fixes for this:

1. Allow New Quizzes to consider the Gradebook late penalty when deciding which attempt to save (keeping the 90% rather than the 100% with 50% late penalty)

2.  Add an option in Gradebook late policy that says "Set late penalty based on date/time of 1st submission only"  (This would keep the 100% on the highest grade from New Quizzes, but not apply a late penalty since the first submission was on time.  Even if both submissions were late, the deduction would not increase with additional submissions)  This fix has the advantage of applying to situations that do not involve New Quizzes

volzk
Community Participant

To Whom It May Concern:

I thought that the engineers had fixed this over the summer.  I was pretty sure that we received an email that this was fixed... but I can't find it in my archived emails, and it is NOT fixed.  I am having the same problem this semester, and I was caught off-guard, as I was SURE that we learned that they finally debugged it.  Students are having the LATE penalty apply to ALL attempts, which is just ridiculous.  Does anyone recall hearing that the engineers had repaired this bug, or was it a different bug that was fixed?  

Thanks,

Katie

volzk
Community Participant

THIS HAS NOT BEEN FIXED.  

Please call Canvas Support and let them know that they haven't fixed THIS.  They did "fix" a few examples of this by their re-programming (based on the link that is above, where they say this matter is "closed" because they're addressing it as a bug), BUT THEY DID NOT FIX THE PROBLEM.  

They are still NOT applying the late penalty to individual attempts. 

For example, if I choose "highest" attempt as the score to keep, and my student scores 8/10 on the original attempt, and then 10/10 on the late attempt, the LATE PENALTY is being applied to the 10/10 because it's the highest, and THAT SCORE is going into my gradebook.  In case you're wondering, THAT SCORE is 75%.  UGH!!!!!  

Canvas Support (Level 2) is telling me that this IS the way it is meant to be programmed.  The crazy thing is... WE MISSED IT!  Even when I read the link above, I thought it WAS addressing our problem.  But we missed this scenario when we looked it over.

Please please help in calling them or writing to let them know that this BUG is NOT YET FIXED.

Thanks.

Katie

morrisj1
Community Participant

This issue is wreaking havoc in our department for those of us who depend on the late penalty to motivate students to stay on schedule in these challenging instructional times. We're having to send warnings to our students like: "Whatever you do, don't go back and reattempt a quiz after the deadline to learn from your mistakes, because Canvas might erase your highest score even though it says that it will keep it." Students are obviously confused by peculiar messages like this, but I don't see what choice we have. We can either warn our students that Canvas won't do what it says it will or manually inspect hundreds of quiz attempts and regrade every quiz that Canvas has graded incorrectly.

Several of us have contacted Canvas support to point out this programming bug and have gotten strange and confusing responses; everything from reacting as though this is a brand new problem (even though they've known about the problem for years and have previously admitted that it's a bug), to saying that they don't see any problem with Canvas telling students that their highest score will be kept even though that's not always the case. We'll keep trying, but based on the dizzying array of contradictory responses from Canvas support, I have my doubts as to whether they even understand the problem or how serious it is, let alone that they're in the process of fixing it.

elisat
Community Participant

I have an instructor who has students take a quiz multiple times to master the content before moving on. They can go back and re-take the quiz to study. He is using a late penalty so that they will keep up with the due dates, but they often go back and re-take the quiz after the due date to prepare for the exam. He doesn't want to penalize them for re-taking the quiz, but he still wants to penalize those who don't submit prior to the original due date. He has too many students to manually adjust the grade status from "Late" to "None."

morrisj1
Community Participant

A colleague of mine e-mailed Canvas support a few days ago to report that Canvas erased a student's 95% score and replaced it with a 50% score even though Canvas says it will keep the highest score; this is due to the same programming error that has been pointed out over and over again in this thread. Here's the response that she got back from Canvas: "Thank you for the screenshots and your explanation. The Late Policy is behaving as designed. It is taking the score you've selected to keep, the Highest, and then applying the Late Policy Deduction has been set. If you choose to not have the Late Policy deduct points, your best option would be to remove the deduction from Grades. If you access their score for the assignment and click the arrow, it will allow you to remove the flag."

In other words, we're back to the "we programmed it that way, so what's the problem" line. Never mind that the way it's programmed makes no sense, and that no instructor in their right mind would apply late penalties in this way. If your product is so poorly designed that the best advice is to tell your customers to stop using a feature altogether, then maybe that's some indication that you should make fixing that feature a priority. It is truly unbelievable that after 2 years, Canvas still doesn't seem to even understand what the problem is.

volzk
Community Participant

Exactly.  

Because the status of this "idea" is "Archived," we can't even give a thumbs up to one another's comments anymore.  

But we are in this together...!!  

jlevendi
Community Member

I've never seen a company less interested in fixing their own mistakes. They just don't care!!!

jw2546
Community Participant

"Note from Instructure:

This idea no longer needs to be voted upon, as our engineers are addressing it as a bug. Please refer to New Gradebook, Late Policies, and Multiple Quiz Attempts ding On-Time submissions for more information."

This should be updated, as nothing is being addressed now, as they are shelving this issue.

As I added to the discussion on this topic:

"

As an update, we are experiencing the same bugs with late penalties and multiple submissions for Quizzes, New Quizzes, and have a related, but different, bug with Kaltura Quizzes and how they interact with marking late attempts when there are multiple attempts.

We have also heard that L2s don't think this needs to be worked on (despite affecting student grade integrity). Our customer service rep promises to take this as far as she can. She recognizes that it should not be on students or teachers to monitor all grades for accuracy and that the product should work.

I am no engineer, but, it seems that it's a simple order of operations issue. First, apply late penalty to late attempts. Second, compare attempts to determine highest score. Finally, display the proper score. How hard is that?"

jacob_white
Community Participant

Can't believe they "shelved" the idea of fixing what is obviously a bug!  When I select "Score to Keep: Highest" then an existing grade should never be replaced by a lower one.  THAT IS WHAT THOSE WORDS MEAN.  This isn't an issue with some 3rd party software, this is the Canvas Quiz not working with the Canvas gradebook. 

morrisj1
Community Participant

You nailed it, jw2546; this is a simple order of operations issue that should have been fixed long ago, but Canvas apparently can't be bothered to fix errors in their code, no matter how egregious they are.  This is also not an isolated incident, Canvas's standard response to obvious errors and design flaws that seriously compromise the functionality of their product is to take forever to even acknowledge them and then refuse to do anything about them.  Considering the amount of time that my colleagues and I waste every semester working around issues that Canvas simply won't address, I wouldn't be surprised if Canvas's days are numbered on our campus.  

pcatasti
Community Member

I have just finished a chat with an annoyed customer service representative who tried to convince me that this is the correct way to implement it.

I agree with you that to penalize the overall assignment for an attempt submitted late on a score already earned on a previous attempt submitted within the deadline is stupid.

But Canvas seems particularly obtuse about this because it will be a long day in hell when the developers listen to anything discussed on this community forum.

 

Renee_Carney
Community Team
Community Team

@pcatasti 

Are you seeing something different than what is described in this issue that was resolved? https://community.canvaslms.com/t5/Known-Issues/New-Gradebook-Late-Policies-and-Multiple-Quiz-Attemp... 

pcatasti
Community Member

@Renee_Carney 

Yes, I have an assignment set to Highest Attempt and unlimited attempts, so that a student can keep practicing on it for the remainder of the course past the due date.

However, regardless of whether a past due date new attempt has a higher score or not of the Highest Attempt obtained within the due date, Canvas still dings the assignment score, as per the late policy.

This is contrary to what's stated in the shared document.

 

Stef_retired
Instructure Alumni
Instructure Alumni
Status changed to: Open
 
Renee_Carney
Community Team
Community Team

@pcatasti 

We did just open this idea conversation back up, however I'm not sure we'll keep it open.  We're still going through some internal discussions to see if we continue to handle this through Known Issues or as an Idea Conversation.  This is more for our own internal tracking of the feature function but just wanted to be transparent in what's going on. 

No matter how we continue to handle the communication of this in the Community I also want to communicate that our engineering team has an open ticket on this.  I don't have any more information I can share publicly, but wanted you to know it is on their radar (and we completely agree with you - this needs fixed). 

bernhard_lohkam
Community Participant

It is not just the applying of late policy but marking of the attempt as being late which is an issue. If the assignment has been passed on time then it should never be marked as late in the Grade book. Irrespective of what happens afterwards and which scores are to be kept.

Scoring of course can be debated, but I am disappointed (once again) with Instructure's handling with respect to user's wishes and ideas. After all we are the educators who know what is best for our students learning and we are customers who pay the developers' bills. At least there should be an option to "Apply late policy after passing", "Keep (pass) score before due date", "Keep open after passing without late penalty" or something along these lines. There may be countless possibilities and options how to deal with this (although the standard ones mentioned here so far are obvious), so a simple option (as outlined previously) would be a start and shouldnt take a developer more time to fix than us customers spend on complaining about it.

ajw13
Community Participant

Dear Canvas Support,

Can you please skip the normal, "Hey, let's see how many votes we get" method for making a change and just approve a change to the grade book that records the highest of allowed multiple attempts submitted before deadline?  As it currently operates, if I allow two attempts with a deadline and a student submits the second attempt late, the grade book auto records a zero.  To correct this the student has to notify me then I have to manually edit the grade.  In a class of 180 this is not only time consuming but the grading rule is inane.  So please, just make the change!

Andy

morrisj1
Community Participant

I completely agree, Andy @ajw13.  Canvas has known about this programming error for years, and they are fully aware of the havoc it is wreaking for teachers trying to use Canvas quizzes, and yet they have still taken no action to fix it.  In the meantime, we've gotten contradictory responses from Canvas support, everything from claims that a fix is right around the corner to it's too difficult to fix, so we're not going to.  I don't know if this is a matter of poor communication between various levels of Canvas support, or some kind of a bait and switch strategy to endlessly string their customers along.  Whatever the reason, I've given up on them ever fixing this error.  I've never known a company more unwilling to fix errors in their code or one that cares less about the quality of their product, and I can only hope our university finds a better alternative to Canvas the next time the LMS discussion comes up.  

Jerry