Treat zeros as ungraded for both teacher and student views

(2)
Choosing for a gradebook to treat ungraded assignments as zeros should set that as the default to the grades view students see.
 

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68 Comments
Renee_Carney
Community Team
Community Team

This idea was moved from Under Consideration stage (no longer in use) to the Product Radar stage.  

This change was made as part of a feature idea process evolution.  Find more information, and contribute insights, by joining Focus Group: DRAFT Feature Idea Space

iys2
Community Explorer

So glad to hear that this is moving to the Product Radar stage - thanks for the good news!

kmay
Community Participant

I would like to see Institution settings for both "Treat Ungraded as 0" and "Calculate based only on graded assignments". We should be able to set the default for our institution depending on what our faculty and students expect while still having the option available to same for the what-if grades. Also, yes, the verbiage should be changed/explained in both places.

Really, it would be better to have a "What-if" Total column and a Final Total column visible to all. 

kasnetm
Community Novice

Totally agree. Student default should be "treat ungraded assignments as zero." Mr Jackobsen accuratly points out that students are "setup for a fall, thinking their grade is higher seeing it as inflated not including zeros on assignments." This has been my experiance with students shocked to learn that they are failing and not getting the C or B the gradebook displays with the current default of "calculate only based on graded assignments." 

kimberly_smith1
Community Participant

Along the lines of this conversation, I would like to add an issue associated with the Assignment Group rule "Number of scores to ignore for each student" (which is actually "automatically drop lowest X scores). I am wondering if there might be a way to incorporate a new feature to “treat ungraded as zero” when allowing students to ‘drop lowest’ X scores from an Assignment Group. Any suggestions on how best to manage this in the current system would be appreciated. Right now, I am just preventing totals from displaying to students in the Gradebook. Thank you!

Here is my situation: I allow students to drop their lowest score from several of my assignment groups (1/14 lowest quiz score, 2/5 lowest critical thinking tasks, 1/5 lowest exam score). So, if students do well on the X number required assignments in each group they can, potentially, skip the remaining ones in that group. Alternatively, students can choose do all of the assignments in each group and then keep their highest X required scores in each group. I find that this not only encourages students be focused early in the semester (do well 'up-front' may = less work later), but also offers flexibility in terms of their balancing school and 'life' responsibilities. Students are allowed to miss one assignment deadline from each assignment group for any reason (sick, car trouble, have to attend a wedding, internet went down, dog ate my homework) and use that as the assignment that gets dropped from that group. It also eliminates the need for creating make-up assignments. Unfortunately, this also wreaks havoc with students' (and sometimes my) ability to understand their current course grade across the semester.

Presently, in my case, as students' grades are posted across the semester, the system automatically "drops" their lowest X scores for each group (based on rules set for each assignment group). A case in point... I have a student who has already completed the required 3/5 critical thinking tasks this semester (90/90, 85/90, 90/90). However, two of these are grayed out in her Gradebook because the lowest 2/5 of these are 'ignored' – so only 1/5 is counted toward her course grade. This Gradebook issue does not resolve itself until the deadlines for ALL of the assignments in that Assignment Group have passed (near the end of the semester) –  even though she is likely to skip the two remaining assignments in that group, and use those two zeros as her “dropped' scores. I realize, of course, that I could just set the Assignment Group rules at the end of the semester. But, as others have alluded to, students will think they are fine - until suddenly points (lowest scores) disappear from their Gradebook at the end of the semester.

Ideally, there would be some way that the 'not yet due' scores were grayed out until the submission deadlines pass in each group. Would an IF-THEN kind of thing, integrated into Assignment Group rule option, work? Something like...

IF "assignment is not locked" (in an Assignment Group) THEN "treat ungraded as zero"?

This way (I think), all assignments would start out as zero (and grayed out) in the Gradebook and, early in the semester, the X number of “to be ignored” scores would (of course) be the scores grayed out in the Gradebook. However, as the semester progresses, and students’ assignments are graded, higher (non-zero) scores replace them and are included in course grade totals - while the “to be ignored” scores (I think) have no influence on overall course grades until their respective deadlines pass? Refering to the example case from above, that student's 3/5 scores would be counted in her total and the two up-coming (likely to be dropped) assignments have no influence. In that same example, if that student decided to complete a 4th critical thinking task, and that 4th score was higher than one of the three previous scores in that group, the 4th (higher) score would replace the lowest of the first three in that group. 

Thank you again!

kimberly_smith1
Community Participant

Hello Christi,

I posted my comment to the Community, but also wanted to reply to your question specifically - since it seems you are someone who may be orchestrating a change to this feature? Here is my post...

Along the lines of this conversation, I would like to add an issue associated with the Assignment Group rule "Number of scores to ignore for each student" (which is actually "automatically drop lowest X scores). I am wondering if there might be a way to incorporate a new feature to “treat ungraded as zero” when allowing students to ‘drop lowest’ X scores from an Assignment Group. Any suggestions on how best to manage this in the current system would be appreciated. Right now, I am just preventing totals from displaying to students in the Gradebook. Thank you!

 

Here is my situation: I allow students to drop their lowest score from several of my assignment groups (1/14 lowest quiz score, 2/5 lowest critical thinking tasks, 1/5 lowest exam score). So, if students do well on the X number required assignments in each group they can, potentially, skip the remaining ones in that group. Alternatively, students can choose do all of the assignments in each group and then keep their highest X required scores in each group. I find that this not only encourages students be focused early in the semester (do well 'up-front' may = less work later), but also offers flexibility in terms of their balancing school and 'life' responsibilities. Students are allowed to miss one assignment deadline from each assignment group for any reason (sick, car trouble, have to attend a wedding, internet went down, dog ate my homework) and use that as the assignment that gets dropped from that group. It also eliminates the need for creating make-up assignments. Unfortunately, this also wreaks havoc with students' (and sometimes my) ability to understand their current course grade across the semester.

 

Presently, in my case, as students' grades are posted across the semester, the system automatically "drops" their lowest X scores for each group (based on rules set for each assignment group). A case in point... I have a student who has already completed the required 3/5 critical thinking tasks this semester (90/90, 85/90, 90/90). However, two of these are grayed out in her Gradebook because the lowest 2/5 of these are 'ignored' – so only 1/5 is counted toward her course grade. This Gradebook issue does not resolve itself until the deadlines for ALL of the assignments in that Assignment Group have passed (near the end of the semester) –  even though she is likely to skip the two remaining assignments in that group, and use those two zeros as her “dropped' scores. I realize, of course, that I could just set the Assignment Group rules at the end of the semester. But, as others have alluded to, students will think they are fine - until suddenly points (lowest scores) disappear from their Gradebook at the end of the semester.

 

Ideally, there would be some way that the 'not yet due' scores were grayed out until the submission deadlines pass in each group. Would an IF-THEN kind of thing, integrated into Assignment Group rule option, work? Something like...

IF "assignment is not locked" (in an Assignment Group) THEN "treat ungraded as zero"?

This way (I think), all assignments would start out as zero (and grayed out) in the Gradebook and, early in the semester, the X number of “to be ignored” scores would (of course) be the scores grayed out in the Gradebook. However, as the semester progresses, and students’ assignments are graded, higher (non-zero) scores replace them and are included in course grade totals - while the “to be ignored” scores (I think) have no influence on overall course grades until their respective deadlines pass? Refering to the example case from above, that student's 3/5 scores would be counted in her total and the two up-coming (likely to be dropped) assignments have no influence. In that same example, if that student decided to complete a 4thcritical thinking task, and that 4th score was higher than one of the three previous scores in that group, the 4th (higher) score would replace the lowest of the first three in that group. 

 

Thank you again!

krhughes
Community Novice

This is very serious! If I put in a zero, the assignment is not on the student's to do list!!! If I don't put a zero in, the student thinks they are doing great in my class and doesn't even look at their to do list. Please fix asap!!!! This is a disaster for my student community. I am resorting to sending lots of messages to students, but the items aren't in their to do lists!

kimberly_smith1
Community Participant

Hello Kristen,

Could you please clarify which "zero" function you are referring to, and/or provide a few more details about your situation? For example, when I manually enter a zero to a student's assignment in the Gradebook, my students can still see the assignment in their 'To Do' list - as long as the deadline has not yet passed. This is also the case when add zero

s using the 'Set Default Grade' function. Below is an example picture from the "Student View":

252504_pastedImage_7.png

Personally, I do not use the "Treat ungraded as zeros" function. There have been several suggestions posted requestion possible changes to how this setting works. However, currently at least (as understand it), using the "Treat ungraded as zeros" function should have no impact at all on what your students see. Stephanie (above) explains this function as "a hypothetical exercise that does not actually give zero grades to any students", and Richard has suggested renaming this to something more in line with what the function actually does, like "preview grades with ungraded as zero".  So, it seems like something else may be happening in your case?

krhughes
Community Novice

Kimberly,

Thanks for the note, but I teach high school, and so ability to make up

late work after the deadline is essential or many of my students would

fail. So I am talking about the to do disappearing AFTER the due date if I

put in a zero. The assignment is no longer marked "Late" in the assignment

list. It just shows zero. So no students are doing missing work and many

have Fs. Changing the due date is not a realistic option since it really

was due back in the past, and there are consequences to handing in late

work.

Kristen

On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 4:03 PM, kimberly.smith@sfcollege.edu <

kimberly_smith1
Community Participant

Ahhh... I see. 

Does this still happen if you set the available "Until" date beyond the "Due" date?

I just tested this within 'Migration' course, and it seems that assignments will remain in the 'To Do' list until after the available date passes. Personally, I don't accept 'late' assignments (I let them drop lowest score(s) from each assignment group instead) - but this is what I am seeing. Within the assignment itself, I did this:

252695_pastedImage_4.png

I then manually added a "0" for this assignment to the Test Student.

Looking at my Test Student in 'Student View', I see this (even though it is now Sep 22 - after the deadline).

252692_pastedImage_1.png

Of course, it may be that using the 'Set Default Grade" option acts differently in relation to the 'To List' after the Due date? I tried to check this in my 'Migration' course as well, but the Gradebook (for some reason) wouldn't assign a default as zero to the Test Student. This may just be because it was the "Test Student", or because Test Student is the only student in that Gradebook. Anyway... 

It may be that you have already tried setting the 'Until' date to beyond the 'Due' date. If not, and you try it, please let me know what happens to the To Do list. I have some other assigning zero/Gradebook things of my own I am trying to work out Smiley Happy

kimberly_smith1
Community Participant

P.S. When you allow "late" submissions (by extending the 'Until' date beyond the 'Due' date), you should also see a "LATE" notation within SpeedGrader.

krhughes
Community Novice

Did not know that. Thanks, that is helpful.

KH

laurakgibbs
Community Champion

General suggestion: it would be really helpful if for each of the feature requests related to the Gradebook, someone from Instructure could comment IN THE BODY OF THE FEATURE REQUEST at the top of the page about whether this feature will or will not be available in the new Gradebook that is coming soon.

Apparently my school is implementing the new Gradebook this year.

I'm not sure it really makes sense to be voting on feature ideas that might be coming already in the new Gradebook, and I honestly don't have time to investigate that myself. It would be great if that could be made clear in the feature request box up at the top.

Or should I assume that any Gradebook feature requests open for voting are NOT features available in the new Gradebook-to-come?

adriano_cavalca
Community Novice

This feature has been in discussion since 2015Why it was never implement so far? It is an important feature who will enormously directly benefit all students and instructors who use Canvas.

JACOBSEN_C
Community Contributor
Author

Great question! :smileygrin:

Renee_Carney
Community Team
Community Team

Greetings  @adriano_cavalca ‌ and  @JACOBSEN_C  

I believe we have answered this question a couple times for you already this week, but I'll go ahead and answer it again here!

Product Radar is an acknowledgement that we see an idea has been deemed important by the community and should be considered in prioritization processes.  It does not guarantee that and idea will be moved into a queue for development.  You can read more about the process in the following documents:

JACOBSEN_C
Community Contributor
Author

Great, thanks!  3 years on teh radar, though... Viper would have had Maverick & Goose or Iceman & Slider either shoot me down by now, or drop me off at the bar.  #lostThatLovnFeeln #cougersInAflatspinHeadedOutToSea

adriano_cavalca
Community Novice

This feature/fix has over 100 votes up. Non sense that it is still not implement, specially as it has been pending since 2015. Now we are almost in 2018, and soon it will be completing 3 years since its birth. Is Canvas development team policy to wait until a request become over 18 years old to finally implement it - or what?

adriano_cavalca
Community Novice

Maybe I should talk with my students taking my classes on front-end, back-end, and server-side development, to found a start up and have a better product/service than Canvas tech development team is providing at moment -- to implement this very simple feature. The way Canvas is dealing with this request it simply shows a complete disrespect to all professors and students, not watching for the best interest of the higher education community.

awilliams
Instructure Alumni
Instructure Alumni

Hey  @adriano_cavalca . I am going to respond to your other comment above in more detail but I wanted to say, the short answer is that the amount of time since a specific community idea has been created is not representative of the staging within the product roadmap.