Episode 16: Competency-Based Learning & Credentials: The Next Chapter
Ryan Lufkin (00:01.636)
Hello and welcome to the Educast 3000 podcast. I'm your cohost, Ryan Lufkin.
Melissa Loble (00:06.753)
And I'm your co -host Melissa Loble. And we're so glad you could join us today. As I've mentioned in previous podcasts, I get to be part of the One Ed Tech Board of Directors. And through that, I've gotten to meet some really awesome people. And one of those awesome people is Sarah Demark, who's joining us today. Sarah is the vice president. I want to get this right, Sarah, because we're good friends. The vice president of workforce intelligence and credential integrity.
at Western Governors University. I nailed it. I love it. I love it. That's an impressive title. And we're going to get into that in a few minutes. And she's also the interim executive director of the Open Skills Network. And I think those two roles and experiences really bring so much value to this conversation, particularly around credential skills, competency -based learning, and so many other awesome topics.
Sarah DeMark (00:37.048)
You nailed it.
Ryan Lufkin (00:38.242)
Hehehehehe
Sarah DeMark (01:01.752)
Well, those are my favorite things, so.
Melissa Loble (01:03.286)
I love it. This is why we have you on this podcast. And it's so good to have you here, Sarah.
Sarah DeMark (01:08.206)
Thank you. I am super excited to be here. So thank you so much for inviting me.
Ryan Lufkin (01:12.184)
Yeah. Well, Sarah, before we dive into the meat of this, explain to us a little bit about your background and how you got to this point where you have the most impressive title in the room.
Melissa Loble (01:12.249)
Yeah.
Sarah DeMark (01:21.796)
You know what? Thank you so much. I love that title. took, it's really long, but I'm like, I don't know what I would drop. love it all. so let's see. I've been at WGU for 10 years now. I just had my 10 year anniversary earlier this month. thank you very much. And, it's been fantastic. And I've been really lucky to have, a lot of different roles at, at WGU. So right now I'm vice provost with the super fancy title.
Ryan Lufkin (01:27.266)
It's impressive, yeah.
Melissa Loble (01:37.252)
Congrats.
Sarah DeMark (01:50.756)
And what that means is really focusing on like that intersection between what we offer in our educational programs and what employers are needing. And so really making sure that we've got tight connections there. And so before that, I was also leading program development. So overseeing all the design and development of all the programs at WGU. But where I started here,
was actually an assessment. My background, I am a recovering psychometrician, I like to say.
Ryan Lufkin (02:22.98)
Again, psychometrician one of the coolest job titles ever. Like, who, like psychometrician, it just sounds rad.
Sarah DeMark (02:28.354)
Really? Yes. I know. And if you get like the right people, they'll call it psycho magicians. And so that's like pretty fantastic too. So like that's my, that's my background, which of course, right, somebody that loves assessment, like what better place than working for WGU at a competency based institution, because it's all built around assessment. And so it's been like a really awesome like way to like,
Melissa Loble (02:35.914)
Ooh, I like that!
Ryan Lufkin (02:44.782)
Yeah.
Melissa Loble (02:49.966)
Mm -hmm.
Sarah DeMark (02:57.856)
use my superpowers for good. Prior to WGU, I worked in corporate. So I worked for both Cisco and VMware. I'm working in their certification programs, their online learning programs, even at Cisco, doing a lot of assessment around professional development and employee growth. And so a lot of fun areas I've got to kind play in with assessment. at WGU, it's the heart of
Melissa Loble (02:59.865)
Mm -hmm.
Ryan Lufkin (03:27.062)
yeah.
Melissa Loble (03:27.15)
Mm -hmm.
Sarah DeMark (03:27.352)
we do and so it's been really like a nice fit. So that's kind of what I've been up to and how I landed here.
Melissa Loble (03:33.798)
I love this, you know, even guests like you that I, that, you we've really gotten to know each other over the years. I always learned something new and I did not know you were a recovery psychometrician or a psychomagician. So this is one of my favorite things. We also asked guests, which is always so interesting to hear this answer, about their favorite learning moment. And it can be one where you were a learner, where you were a teacher, where you observed others learning. What's that?
Sarah DeMark (03:44.908)
Yes.
Melissa Loble (04:02.053)
memorable or favorite learning moment that you might be willing to share.
Sarah DeMark (04:06.436)
so I don't think it's my favorite. but I'll say like one of the harder, but most valuable things I've learned is, just the importance of change management. like if I look back at things that, gosh, like if I could have a magic wand and do a do -over, it was usually around like change management and either doing too much change all at once or communication around that change. And so like,
Melissa Loble (04:09.166)
Okay.
Ryan Lufkin (04:18.98)
Hmm
Melissa Loble (04:19.347)
yes.
Melissa Loble (04:28.708)
Hmm.
Sarah DeMark (04:35.128)
That's probably one of the biggest learnings I've had in my career is usually when things kind of fall, you can probably point it back to change management. So that's probably my biggest learning and something that I try to be super conscious about when we're doing new things at WGU. And it's definitely a skill set. It's not, yeah, I think people don't realize that it's actually like a discipline and there's actually like that.
Melissa Loble (04:51.279)
Okay.
Ryan Lufkin (04:56.803)
Yeah.
Melissa Loble (04:57.177)
Mm -hmm.
Melissa Loble (05:01.302)
Mm -hmm.
Ryan Lufkin (05:01.528)
Yeah, yeah.
Sarah DeMark (05:02.584)
than a framework, but that's been my biggest learning is the value of change management.
Ryan Lufkin (05:08.644)
I'm pretty sure I've mentioned the book, Who Moved My Cheese, that I think I read, you know, 30 years ago, and it really is, that human nature aspect of change is really always difficult. Yeah.
Sarah DeMark (05:19.138)
Yes, it is. And we underestimate it over and over and over again.
Ryan Lufkin (05:23.054)
yeah. So as we talk about competency based education, this is one I want to actually like have you define it because I think CBE means different things if you're in K -12, if you're in higher education. So just give us the quick and fast definition, will you?
Sarah DeMark (05:39.14)
Yeah, so okay, so I'll give you like maybe like a story to kind of to sort of explain it a little bit. So when WGU was first founded, it was almost like 30 years ago and it's called Western Governors University because I didn't know this, but there's actually a Western Governors Association that had like governors in all the Western states. I think there's like 18 or 19 of them and they got together and they said, know, this isn't like the higher ed isn't working, especially in the Western states, right?
Ryan Lufkin (05:43.833)
Yeah.
Melissa Loble (05:43.878)
Please.
Sarah DeMark (06:08.164)
It's very rural, people are very spread out, like we have huge workforce needs, but like traditional school isn't working for them. Like we're not gonna, it's not feasible to ask working adults to come to a campus and sit there and learn in a classroom, especially ones that have all of this really great work experience. And so, and with like the rising cost of, you know, upkeep for buildings and like all of that, they're like, this isn't sustainable. And so,
when they were getting together and sort of thinking about like, okay, what could this look like in terms of like the future of higher ed? The governor of Colorado was thinking back about his pilot training. And he was like, you know, at the end of the day, I don't care how many hours somebody spent in training, like how to be a pilot, I just care that they can land the plane, right?
Melissa Loble (06:50.148)
Staying.
Melissa Loble (06:57.698)
Mm -hmm.
Ryan Lufkin (07:00.74)
It's good analogy.
Melissa Loble (07:01.946)
Fascinating.
Sarah DeMark (07:03.01)
And so that's kind of like where a lot of this started forming is like it does like see time doesn't matter, right? All it matters is that you can do the thing. And so, so that was really how like all of these things kind of came together, which is thinking about how do we like keep seat time flexible, but really holding everybody accountable to demonstrating
the skills and the competencies that are required for like that degree program or that course or whatever we're talking about. So like, that's really like the crux of it is the validation of the skills and competencies and taking away time, place, like all of those other factors that I think are pretty ingrained into traditional higher ed and sort of removing like that as a barrier.
Ryan Lufkin (07:43.972)
Mm -hmm.
Ryan Lufkin (07:53.234)
yeah.
Ryan Lufkin (07:57.284)
I was gonna say that's a pretty big shift from, know, currently we measure attendance and we fall back on those butts in seats kinds of metrics, right? Yeah.
Melissa Loble (08:01.658)
Mm -hmm.
Sarah DeMark (08:04.376)
Yes.
Melissa Loble (08:05.009)
There's even legislation, federal legislation, that's talking about specifically measuring attendance. And those kinds of things are in such contrast with this learn to be able to do in a lot of ways, right? And I can hear in your voice your passion for it. Where did that, is there something, where'd that come from? Is there something that in particular in your life or around you that really inspired you? And how does that feed the work that you do at WGU?
Sarah DeMark (08:18.68)
Yeah. Yeah.
Sarah DeMark (08:34.852)
So I think one of like, so one of my favorite stories is that like there was a student here at WGU, she was a bookkeeper for 15 years, right? Has been doing this job and doing this job really well, but she needed her bachelor's degree to be able to advance in her career. And so she did have like some transfer credit that she brought in, but she was able to complete her bachelor's degree in nine months.
Like that's amazing. It's like, of course, right? Of course you could do that because she is doing that every day, like on the job. She just didn't have the piece of paper to be able to validate that she had those skills. And so if I think about like somebody like that and WGU really started to be able to serve those working adults that already have that experience, but then think about somebody like me.
Ryan Lufkin (09:04.568)
Yeah.
Melissa Loble (09:15.333)
Yes.
Ryan Lufkin (09:16.078)
Yeah.
Melissa Loble (09:21.818)
Mm -hmm.
Ryan Lufkin (09:27.766)
yeah.
Sarah DeMark (09:30.488)
Like, my gosh, like I could never, I should never complete an accounting program in nine months, right? Like I need a different pace. And so like I just really appreciate being able to have that flexibility, that personalization, like even the thing that's interesting at WGU, like I don't even have to engage in the course. If I know all of this information, if I want to talk to my neighbor who's an accountant and learn it for him, I can do any of those things.
Melissa Loble (09:35.137)
Mm -hmm.
Ryan Lufkin (09:35.395)
Yeah, yeah.
Sarah DeMark (10:00.352)
It doesn't matter how I learn the content or how long it takes me to learn the content. I just have to show that I know it. And so I really I feel like that model is really valuable to like so many people and like fun fact. I actually just started my MBA at WGU in December, so like I'm also kind of experiencing at as a student and.
Melissa Loble (10:03.386)
Mm -hmm.
Melissa Loble (10:08.548)
Hmm?
Ryan Lufkin (10:16.288)
yeah.
Sarah DeMark (10:26.976)
It did take me longer to get through the accounting course than it took me to get through the course on like, let's say ethical leadership, right? And so as it should. And so like, it's been also fascinating to kind of have that student experience too, but it feels like it's working.
Ryan Lufkin (10:33.326)
Yeah.
Melissa Loble (10:33.392)
Mm -hmm.
Ryan Lufkin (10:40.1)
Yeah. Well, and Western Governors has been kind of one of the pioneers. If you followed Western Governors University over the last, you know, how many years has it been? At least, at least 10? You know.
Sarah DeMark (10:50.916)
But I think we were like at 27. Yeah.
Ryan Lufkin (10:53.55)
Holy cow, yeah. But really pushing kind of back on some of those antiquated regulations around seat time and things like that. there's a kind of a debate within higher education. Is is CBE the future? Is CBE a unique, you know, for certain institutions like Western Governors University? What are your thoughts on kind of, does CBE become a, I guess, skill -based, mastery -based measurement credit for prior learning, things like that? Does that work its way into all of higher education?
Melissa Loble (10:53.658)
That's great.
Sarah DeMark (11:22.5)
Well, obviously I'm biased, but I do think one of the big values that we have around CBE is that like those quality measures are built in like to the program, right? So we can show that our students are actually all graduating with these skills and competencies. And so I know that there's a lot of like tension out there around
Melissa Loble (11:24.388)
Mm -hmm.
Ryan Lufkin (11:24.388)
You
Sarah DeMark (11:48.526)
quality programs and how do you measure quality and all of that really important stuff. But I think one of the things that's really fascinating about what we're doing is like, it's built in, right? And we don't have things like grade inflation and things like that, right? We actually don't have like letter grades, right? Either have demonstrated that you have these competencies or you're working on them, right? It's like, that's it. And so it's a really...
Melissa Loble (11:49.519)
Mm -hmm.
Melissa Loble (11:59.494)
Mm -hmm.
Ryan Lufkin (12:03.298)
Yeah, yeah.
Melissa Loble (12:03.663)
Mm -hmm.
Ryan Lufkin (12:07.246)
Yeah.
Sarah DeMark (12:16.612)
like objective kind of measure of like what students can do. And it's interesting, right? Because if I think about like my college experience, right? Like you're in a lot of lecture halls with 300 plus students. Like you can say I maybe with like a C minus and like you're still moving forward, but like that does not really an amazing demonstration of my skills and ability. And so, and so like there's a lot more like accountability, I think for individuals to not.
Ryan Lufkin (12:29.028)
Hmm.
Ryan Lufkin (12:37.347)
Yeah.
Melissa Loble (12:38.108)
Yeah.
Sarah DeMark (12:44.676)
to really be able to demonstrate it all and not just some.
Melissa Loble (12:50.514)
Well, as you look to the future for CBE, because I think I've watched the work that WGU and other institutions have done evolve over the years in how do we deliver this and how do we ensure exactly what you're talking about, that quality, that alignment, in particular, to the workforce. Where do you see CBE going? Where are you thinking about the future? Do we see changes in the space? Do you think it will just?
It'll just become more prevalent. Where's the future for you?
Sarah DeMark (13:24.516)
So one of the things that we're really looking at, which I'm super excited about, is more of that integration of work -based learning. And how do we start to think about those blended models of like apprenticeships and internships and project -based learning and all of that integration? so thinking about
Ryan Lufkin (13:41.954)
Yeah.
Sarah DeMark (13:48.996)
Like, it's okay, so it's super fascinating because like, as I mentioned, right, this was WGU was really founded around, like working adults, right, that have, you experience typically like in their field. But what we're starting to see, especially post pandemic is a much, a quickly rising demographic of 18 to 24 year olds.
Ryan Lufkin (14:09.198)
Yeah, yeah.
Melissa Loble (14:10.062)
Interesting.
Sarah DeMark (14:11.618)
I think makes sense, right? I mean, they are questioning the value of a college education. WGU is incredibly affordable. They are very comfortable with online learning. It's also very flexible to what their needs are and what they're juggling, whether that's work or what have you. so one of the things though that we're seeing, which I think is fascinating, is that
Unlike a working adult that is coming in and building their resume and putting in like a college degree on top of all of this vast work experience, 18 to 24 year old don't have that vast work experience. And we're frequently seeing like even entry level jobs expecting two years of experience. Like, how does that work? And so one of the things that we're really thinking about is like, okay, like how do we start to help students build both of these things?
Melissa Loble (14:46.053)
Yes.
Ryan Lufkin (14:47.342)
Yeah.
Ryan Lufkin (14:53.325)
Hmm. Yeah.
Sarah DeMark (15:04.514)
That's college education, plus giving them the work experience to kind of really augment that resume and kind of move to the top of the pile because that's what we're seeing employers are increasingly expecting. And that's hard.
Ryan Lufkin (15:08.344)
Yeah.
Ryan Lufkin (15:18.338)
Yeah. Well, and one of things about CBE that has always been a challenge really is doing it at scale, right? There's so much, there's so many kind of formative assessments along the way measuring that skill of knowledge, right? And this is the point where Melissa rings the AI bell because we can't get through a single podcast. I need to get a bell. need to get like a cowbell or something and it's our AI bell. like AI is so pervasive right now in education. But one of the, one of the benefits of AI is doing tasks like this at scale.
Melissa Loble (15:34.287)
You do it, Ryan, you do it. You do.
Ryan Lufkin (15:47.65)
So, what do you think the benefits of will be for CBE programs?
Sarah DeMark (15:52.194)
Yeah, so I think AI feels like it's like the center square on the bingo card that's basically free space, like everybody's like picking up on it. So we're doing some really like interesting things with AI at WGU. One is like even just how we're using it internally. So we're leveraging AI for like a lot of content development now for our courses, a lot of development of assessment items. And so really being able to
Ryan Lufkin (15:56.1)
-huh, 100%. Everybody's got it.
Melissa Loble (15:56.488)
yeah.
Sarah DeMark (16:19.712)
advanced like that kind of development has been fantastic. We're also using AI and like decision intelligence around how do we better give insights to like our faculty around where students are struggling or you know what can where maybe some of those like areas where students are kind of stalling like as they're progressing through their course and how do we get on that in a more proactive way and not
Melissa Loble (16:30.01)
Mmm.
Melissa Loble (16:42.833)
Mm
Sarah DeMark (16:48.546)
wait for them to reach out to us, but kind of see it coming and can reach out like proactively. So we're starting to really leverage a lot of that data to help our faculty support students. We're also working on how do we leverage that data to help students make good decisions about what programs might even be the right programs for them based on their career goals. there's a lot of like,
Ryan Lufkin (17:10.008)
yeah. Yeah.
Melissa Loble (17:10.299)
Cool.
Sarah DeMark (17:14.562)
really like fun things that I think we're doing to be able to like help support students and their learning. And we're also building that into like our programs as well. Like, so how do we make sure that all of our graduates are comfortable with AI and know how to use it and know how to use it ethically and make, you know, good judgments about like the use. And so there's a responsibility we have not just in the use of it, but the ethical use of it. And so building that into our programs.
Ryan Lufkin (17:41.72)
What? Yeah, and listen, I talk a lot about that AI literacy and how students expect educators to teach them, but educators are falling behind in the use of AI. So I love that you're starting with educators. How do we get educators using these tools so they understand how to then train students for the AI literacy?
Sarah DeMark (17:58.818)
Yeah, it's been like, and it's fascinating too, because there's like, there's work that we have to do even with our own faculty, right? Because like, especially when you see all these news reports, like, like some people still feel like AI is like cheating and that they shouldn't be seeing it. And so like, yeah, and that's students and faculty. And so how do we educate like everybody in terms of like, this is how you use it. And this is when you should use it. And this is
Ryan Lufkin (18:05.038)
Hmm?
Melissa Loble (18:13.532)
Mm -hmm.
Ryan Lufkin (18:13.628)
yeah, very much so, yeah.
Sarah DeMark (18:24.174)
you know, these are questions that you should be asking about like what you're seeing as like, you know, coming out of some of those engines. And so like really like having to help everybody like up skill in this area.
Ryan Lufkin (18:34.158)
Yeah, we can talk about that all day. Melissa knows. Take me down the nerdy rabbit hole and I'll show you my slides where I talk about the 1980s condition of itself to be scared of AI. 1980s pop culture.
Melissa Loble (18:36.39)
Yeah.
Melissa Loble (18:44.391)
Yeah. yeah. yeah. Well, going to, that's right. I'm going to nerd out on a second piece that you saw, because Ryan knows I do this. Does the recovering psychometrician in you get nervous about assessment content being created by AI? This is something that I'm starting to hear people. It's like, how do we balance creating content with AI and still injecting the human in AI? So I'm curious your thoughts.
Sarah DeMark (18:44.484)
The robots are coming.
Ryan Lufkin (18:50.035)
huh.
Sarah DeMark (19:12.504)
Yeah, no, I'm a big fan of it. Honestly, I think a lot of the challenges that we see with assessment around security or integrity are really stemming from smaller item banks. I mean, if you have large item banks, then like, okay, so someone posts a multiple choice item online. that's okay. We've got a lot to cover for it.
Melissa Loble (19:36.732)
Yeah.
Ryan Lufkin (19:38.787)
Yeah, yeah.
Melissa Loble (19:39.334)
Yeah.
Sarah DeMark (19:40.866)
you know, having multiple forms, having adaptive testing, having larger item banks and, you know, giving students more opportunities to practice like and have practice assessments. And so I view it as like a as a great thing. And I think it's going to actually help students and actually help the integrity of the assessments. Granted, it all still needs to be like field tested before just popping it on like a final exam to make sure that, you know, we we know that those items are going to perform well.
Melissa Loble (20:00.786)
Mm -hmm.
Sarah DeMark (20:09.06)
But no, I see it as a really valuable thing, especially for WGU that has probably 500 different objective assessments. Those are hard banks to continue to keep up. And so I view this as a big win. But I will say, one of the things that's kind of interesting, because one of the things we see in the news is, gosh, faculty going back to in -person essays where they're writing in blue books.
Melissa Loble (20:19.739)
Yes.
Ryan Lufkin (20:20.996)
cheese.
Hmm.
Melissa Loble (20:26.404)
That's amazing. That's amazing.
Melissa Loble (20:36.891)
Yes!
Ryan Lufkin (20:37.506)
Yes, yes, the blue book is back, like yeah.
Sarah DeMark (20:39.0)
Like, right? And so it's like, feel like that's kind of doing like a disservice, right? Again, it's like, when students are in the real world, they will probably be using AI to help with. Yeah, yeah. So like, how do we help students again, use it well and use it in smart ways? Or how do we say, hey, here's this AI generated, you know, essay, tell us what's wrong with it, right?
Ryan Lufkin (20:51.812)
They will for 90 % of the jobs out there, they will be using AI, yes.
Melissa Loble (21:00.178)
Mm
Ryan Lufkin (21:00.868)
Mm -hmm.
Sarah DeMark (21:07.224)
How do you actually leverage AI as part of the assessment experience? You can't fight it, right? And so.
Ryan Lufkin (21:13.668)
No, no, younger students, and my 13 year old really truly doesn't understand why anybody would keep him from using AI, right? He's like, why would I not use it? That's dumb. And so as these younger tech native generations come up, it's gonna just compound this.
Melissa Loble (21:14.173)
Yep.
Sarah DeMark (21:28.91)
Yeah, I kind of like, don't know, people use the analogy like it's the calculator or it's like the GPS or the Excel spreadsheet. Yeah, exactly, exactly. I think there's, you know, if you're using it responsibly and making good decisions about when and how to use it, awesome.
Ryan Lufkin (21:34.212)
100%. Yeah, Wikipedia, yeah.
Ryan Lufkin (21:45.272)
Absolutely.
Melissa Loble (21:45.416)
Love that. OK, I'm going to shift gears a little bit, if that's OK. You wear multiple hats. And I mentioned these at the beginning. OpenSkills Network, what is it? Tell us a little bit about it, because our listeners may not know.
Sarah DeMark (21:48.494)
Okay.
Sarah DeMark (21:58.05)
Yeah, okay, so this is actually like a really interesting thing. So WGU, as I mentioned, really focusing on making sure that we've got programs that align with workforce. And so one of the things that we did is like, okay, like let's take our competencies and match that up with what skills employers are really looking for. And so we kind of realized like a,
One, there's like this translation layer, right? Is that, you know, employers are speaking the language of skills. We've got competencies. How do we sort of, you know, marry those together? And so like, it was great because like our team went through and said, okay, like we did all this work and here's like the skills that we are testing and you know, this all lines up and it's great. But then when we were looking at it, it's like, okay, well you've got like communication listed as a skill. Like what is that?
That could be a thousand different things. Are we talking about even in technology, are you talking about somebody being able to communicate technical information to a non -technical audience? Are you expecting people to communicate code changes to their technical peers? What are you talking about when you say communication?
Ryan Lufkin (22:54.349)
Yeah.
Melissa Loble (22:54.876)
Yes.
Sarah DeMark (23:18.498)
The team then went through and took like all of those, we called them like signals, right? Like employers are saying they want communication. And then we went in and worked with employers and hiring managers to say like, okay, like let's break this down. Like what is, like what is it that you're actually talking about? And so we started to kind of take those skill signals and start to get a little bit more context.
Melissa Loble (23:24.232)
you
Melissa Loble (23:40.882)
Mm -hmm.
Sarah DeMark (23:47.798)
around them. And so through that work, then we created a syntax like a common syntax that we would use for like this skill development and started to create a library. like through and it was not easy, right? This is like pre AI, right? So this is all like, you know, like doing like all of this work, like, you know, pretty like manually. And so
Melissa Loble (23:48.698)
Love.
Ryan Lufkin (24:04.876)
yeah.
Melissa Loble (24:04.892)
Mm -hmm. yeah.
Sarah DeMark (24:11.554)
we started to build up these libraries of skills around all of our programs. And in kind of doing this and having these conversations, we realized that this is a pretty big need for this direction that we're moving in, in terms of skills -based education and skills -based hiring, is like everybody's talking about skills, but we're all talking about them in very different ways. And so how do you start to kind of create that common syntax and that common language?
Melissa Loble (24:35.068)
Mm -hmm
Ryan Lufkin (24:40.612)
Yeah.
Sarah DeMark (24:41.046)
Not that we all have to define communication in the same way, but let's all use the same syntax so we can understand how they're connected and how they're different. so through this work, we started creating a coalition of other organizations that were also trying to dig into this and starting to make these connections between education and employment.
Melissa Loble (24:48.946)
Yes.
Ryan Lufkin (24:52.622)
Absolutely.
Sarah DeMark (25:06.692)
And so as part of the work, and it's actually been fascinating because we've seen what we've been calling rich skills descriptors, which is our skills syntax being incorporated into a lot of different skills programs, a lot of different skills platforms. So like we're really like enthusiastic about like how we're seeing this, like continuing to get integrated into the landscape. But WGU also recognizing that this is a big lift for organizations to take on.
Melissa Loble (25:27.195)
school.
Ryan Lufkin (25:35.821)
yeah.
Sarah DeMark (25:36.26)
We've published our entire library of over 20 ,000 Rich Skills descriptors onto the WGU website for anybody to use however they want. If this gives them a good starting place and gets them 80 % of the way there, awesome, please use this. And so we're also trying to use this as a public good to be able to help other organizations adopt skills -based practices.
Melissa Loble (25:59.046)
Yeah.
Ryan Lufkin (26:04.1)
Well, and we talk a lot about the shift towards lifelong learning, the fact that we're living longer, we're actually staying in our jobs shorter, right? And so we need to re -skill and up -skill throughout our lives. We need to turn into lifelong learners. How does the Open Skills Network kind of support that transition?
Sarah DeMark (26:19.714)
Yeah, so like one of the things that we've been working on, and I know there's other organizations that are working on this as well, but the learning and employment records system, and we've created what we call, I think it's like, I think this undersells it, but like an achievement wallet, which starts to take all of your education experiences and your employment experiences and start to bring them into a single view and be able to extrapolate like the skills that are part of that.
Melissa Loble (26:29.406)
Mm
Melissa Loble (26:36.873)
Mm -hmm.
Sarah DeMark (26:47.724)
And so if it's education and credentials coming from WGU, we've skills denominated all of them. So if you say like, hey, I got this degree or I got this micro credential and you're putting it in your wallet, it'll populate with all like the skills that have been validated as part of that. You can also put in any work experience. You can do self -attested skills as part of this wallet as well. And so like the cool thing about this is that it's not just like,
Melissa Loble (27:12.307)
Mm
Sarah DeMark (27:16.256)
my boring wallet where I've got a bunch of credit cards and it's just like a holder of things, right? But it's actually an insight provider. So I can come in and say, okay, here's all the skills that I have. These are careers that I'm interested in. How much of an overlap do I have? And where are my gaps and how can I fill those gaps? And what kind of educational or work -based opportunities?
Ryan Lufkin (27:30.926)
Yes.
Sarah DeMark (27:41.548)
are out there that can help me sort of make my skills profile more complete for this goal that I have. It'll also show you, like if I wanna be a data analyst, it'll show me like what the salary projections are in like the state of Utah. Is this gonna be a growing field or like, is this gonna be like decreasing, right, in terms of demand? And so it'll also help me make really good decisions about like career paths.
Ryan Lufkin (28:06.99)
Yeah.
Sarah DeMark (28:07.664)
and education opportunities to be able to fill those gaps. And so I think, again, kind of having this like currency of skills is really what's going to help me as a lifelong learner be able to like put it into a cohesive picture of like what I can do based off of all of my experience and all of my learning and then be able to kind of map that to where I want to go. But without having that
Ryan Lufkin (28:23.566)
Yes, yes.
Sarah DeMark (28:34.51)
common language of skills, like it would be a mess. And so I do think like that's kind of where I see that value in this lifelong learning play is that, you know, it'll just continue to build my picture, but it's building it off a common language.
Ryan Lufkin (28:36.995)
Well, yeah.
Melissa Loble (28:37.043)
Yep.
Melissa Loble (28:48.581)
One of the most interesting and, I thought, profound moments in one of our board meetings with One Attack was when we were talking about, and you were sharing this really incredible work and the contribution that WGU is making to the community. And then you were talking about how employers yet to have a way to ingest this meaningfully. And same thing with other institutions, right? How do you, if somebody is collecting this work and then wants to go on and do a master's degree,
or somebody's applying for a job, how do we use this information? And it's so impressive being so deeply skills aligned and so thoughtful and reflective and how the student's putting together this wallet that you're talking about. How do we solve that part? How do we get that throughput so these are really usable collections for a student in any way they want to use them?
Ryan Lufkin (29:34.392)
Yeah.
Sarah DeMark (29:44.388)
Yeah, so I think there's a couple of things. One is, know that there's a lot of other wallets that are being created with other initiatives. And so they have to be interoperable. And we believe that they need to be 1 ,000 % individually owned, not by the institution, not where they're going to hold my transcripts hostage until I pay my $20 fee and things like that. These are student -owned.
Melissa Loble (29:57.725)
Yes.
Melissa Loble (30:05.385)
Mm -hmm.
Ryan Lufkin (30:09.657)
Yeah.
Sarah DeMark (30:13.912)
Like that, think is a key piece and knowing that students might not have one single wallet. I think based off like what institutions they're working with, but they still need to be able to work together. I think is going to be important. Go ahead, were you gonna ask a question?
Ryan Lufkin (30:29.752)
No, I was gonna say one of the challenges too is even the nomenclature around LER versus CLR, right? Comprehensive Learner Record versus Learning Employer Record. These are essentially the same things. They're skills -based, right? You know, that you can curate and showcase your experiences. At the fundamental level, the same thing, but they're talked about in very different ways, which I think is so interesting that leads to some of the confusion as well.
Sarah DeMark (30:33.912)
Yeah.
Sarah DeMark (30:51.982)
Well, so like another kind of interesting thing about that is that a lot of organizations like, you know, big employers are creating their own skills ontology, but you know, they're going to keep it proprietary, right? They're not going to probably publish those more broadly, but you know what? Like, I think that's okay because the magic of AI. think so. Cause what I kind of think about this is like originally when we were talking about like the OSN,
Ryan Lufkin (30:59.79)
Yeah. Yes.
Melissa Loble (31:04.357)
Mm -hmm.
Melissa Loble (31:12.765)
Mm -hmm.
Sarah DeMark (31:19.81)
we were kind of essentially saying, okay, when we speak the language of skills, we're gonna speak French and we want everybody to speak French when they're talking about skills, right? But now with like, you know, Google Translate and like all of these other technologies, not everybody has to speak French, right? People can speak whatever skills language they want, but if we can build those translation services to be able to kind of like blend those into like the actual picture, like I think that's where it needs to go.
Melissa Loble (31:36.349)
Mm -hmm.
Melissa Loble (31:41.842)
Yes.
Ryan Lufkin (31:42.424)
Yeah, yeah.
Sarah DeMark (31:49.08)
That way organizations can have their proprietary skills, taxonomies, and it doesn't matter, right? As long as we've got that translation between all of these different sources to be able to build into a complete picture.
Ryan Lufkin (31:51.844)
Hmm?
Ryan Lufkin (32:03.576)
Well, and that even applies to students that are transferring between institutions. That's one of the biggest, my niece is going through that right now. She was going to a school in California and she transferred back to the University of Utah and half of her courses she's not gonna get credit for. so, because they are using a fundamentally different language to define those skills, right? And so.
Sarah DeMark (32:23.312)
And if let's say those courses were actually skills denominated and if like university structures like had skills denominated courses, it would make that transfer of credit like so much better. Like so much credit.
Ryan Lufkin (32:27.96)
Yeah, yeah.
Ryan Lufkin (32:34.574)
So much easier. And so much more equitable for the students. Yeah, I mean, that's so much money left on the table that it really is frustrating when you're paying your way.
Melissa Loble (32:35.178)
Yes. Yes.
Sarah DeMark (32:42.372)
Totally. Yeah.
Melissa Loble (32:43.198)
Yeah, and we're seeing some institutions come together, either within their own systems or across systems, to start to do some of this work. So maybe we can round this conversation out with advice. Do you have advice for institutions jumping into the world of CBE or working on thinking through how to be more skills oriented and to empower their students with
Ryan Lufkin (32:56.92)
Haha.
Melissa Loble (33:09.886)
these kinds of things like wallets and records.
Sarah DeMark (33:13.784)
Yeah, okay, all right, this is a good one. I would say don't be afraid of it, right? I I think that really what we're trying to do at WGU is be really intentional about making sure that courses, programs align with what employers are looking for. And there's a lot of ways you can do that. You can do that quantitatively by pulling data from, let's say, Lightcast or other sources.
Melissa Loble (33:39.092)
Mmm.
Sarah DeMark (33:41.89)
you can have conversations and focus groups with employers to kind of say like, what are you looking for for like our grads, right? So having those, that data piece directly from employers, so important, right? Build into the programs. And like, it's also really interesting because every course has skills in it. Even for faculty that are like, ooh, I don't like skills, that's coming down like my course, like that's not what we're about.
Ryan Lufkin (34:05.764)
Yeah.
Sarah DeMark (34:09.006)
That is what you're about. Like even if you're talking about like humanities courses, right? You're still talking about like diverse perspective taking and like understanding like, you know, contextual, like, you know, cultural context and things like that. Like there are really important skills in every course. And I think if you can make those transparent to students, like that's going to help them be able to speak the language of employers.
Ryan Lufkin (34:16.974)
Hmm.
Ryan Lufkin (34:35.172)
Yeah.
Sarah DeMark (34:35.684)
able to make those connections better between what they're learning and what employers are looking for. And so, like, just like take a step back and like help students translate, right, the skills in their course to what employers are looking for. Because even in like general eds, I would say 70 % of like the top skills that employers are looking for are skills that students are getting in gen ed. Like,
Melissa Loble (34:48.116)
Mm
Melissa Loble (35:01.148)
Mm -hmm.
Sarah DeMark (35:02.19)
sure your students understand that and that they can draw those connections like that is going to help them immensely be able to have those conversations and be able to truly sell the skills that they really have right to achieve those career paths. So it's like it's like help them help your students.
Ryan Lufkin (35:15.32)
Mm -hmm.
Ryan Lufkin (35:20.932)
Well, we even talked about how if a student understands the why behind a course or the why behind an assignment, they're much less likely to turn to cheating or, you know, they're more likely to actually do well when they understand the why. that's understanding the skills that they're learning, that they're developing as part of that, really does underscore that.
Melissa Loble (35:26.558)
Yeah.
Melissa Loble (35:38.324)
Yeah.
Sarah DeMark (35:38.596)
Well, and it's like, okay, like, like, why do I have to take college algebra? I'm never going to use this ever again. You're like, okay, maybe, but you're also learning critical thinking and problem solving and communicating quantitative information. Like there is a ton of skills that you're learning in the context of college algebra and college algebra isn't going to show up on a job description, but problem solving, critical thinking, working with data a thousand percent is. And so.
Ryan Lufkin (35:42.094)
Yeah.
Ryan Lufkin (35:48.333)
-huh.
Ryan Lufkin (35:53.335)
Yeah.
Melissa Loble (35:56.436)
Mm -hmm.
Melissa Loble (36:02.538)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Ryan Lufkin (36:04.34)
Absolutely.
Sarah DeMark (36:05.11)
Making sure that students see those linkages, I think is really important. For competency -based or any education, honestly, I think is very important.
Melissa Loble (36:13.897)
OK, can I extend the advice to vendors? So we also get a fair amount of technology providers that listen to the podcast. Any advice out there for all of those vendors looking to support CBE, be part of this larger movement, or even support, like you've talked about, just merely skills alignment and skills uncovering?
Sarah DeMark (36:37.41)
Yeah, I would say same advice applies, right? Like understand what employers are looking for and really connecting any content or like internal assessment or whatever as part of that curriculum. Like make it workforce aligned. Employers are like needing that. Students are needing that. And so like make it more applicable, make it more practical, make sure that those connections are bright red.
in terms of drawing those lines. That's a huge win.
Melissa Loble (37:07.038)
Mm
Ryan Lufkin (37:11.768)
Well, and we always pull a lot of the resources together and include them in the show notes, right? And so we'll pull some here, but how do you recommend that listeners would get involved in this conversation? Because it's a very active conversation education right now. What's the best way to jump in?
Sarah DeMark (37:25.206)
Ooh, let's see. I don't think there's like a conference that I have been to that probably hasn't been talking about skills and skills based learning. And there's still so much to solve for there. Honestly, I think like there's a lot of education institutions that are ready, but employers aren't quite sure. We've seen a lot of data that says, know, we're seeing college degrees not being a requirement, you know, on job descriptions, but employers are still hiring people with college degrees.
Ryan Lufkin (37:32.402)
huh.
Melissa Loble (37:41.492)
Mm -hmm.
Melissa Loble (37:53.236)
Yep.
Sarah DeMark (37:54.264)
Like, but there's still a lot to be solved there. So I would say jump into the skills conversations, both on the employer side and on the education side, start to think about like, how can we help this industry be able to make those connections, to be able to find the awesome talent that is out there that don't have like these college degrees yet and get them into good family sustaining careers. I think that's like a big one.
Ryan Lufkin (38:13.39)
Mm -hmm.
Sarah DeMark (38:23.362)
Like on our, can make sure that you have this link, but our WGU skill sites again has links to like our entire skills library, a lot of great resources on how to like get started, I think with skills work. So yeah, there's a lot of organizations that are talking about this. And so I think it's, I think we're still early. I think we were hoping that it would be a little bit further along than it is. I think the conversation is worth it. Yeah, thanks for the announcement. How about that? I'll come in full circle.
Melissa Loble (38:31.786)
Great.
Ryan Lufkin (38:32.964)
Yeah
Ryan Lufkin (38:47.78)
The change is hard, we know that. Yeah, you just brought that right back around.
Melissa Loble (38:51.806)
Yeah.
Melissa Loble (38:55.546)
I it. I love it. Well, the last question we typically ask our guests, because Ryan and I are in this world to a certain degree, but you are the expert in this space. What is not being talked about when we're thinking about CBE, skills -based learning, or what did we miss in this conversation that you think is important that listeners are starting to think about?
Ryan Lufkin (39:12.612)
Yeah.
Sarah DeMark (39:22.146)
Yeah, I would say even if you're not like a formal competency based like institution, like still thinking about that as you're like, you know, creating your programs, creating your courses, thinking about like what your assessments are as part of that program, like still having that competency based lens is incredibly important. And again,
it's important for ensuring that your students are graduating and passing your course with the skills that you're hoping that they're going to get. so really focusing on that. And I think that communication linkage piece, I think is important. I think there's a lot of faculty that feel like that's making their courses less than by saying that they're teaching skills and it's not. It's actually making those courses relevant and important.
Ryan Lufkin (40:07.363)
Mm -hmm.
Melissa Loble (40:07.902)
Hmm.
Sarah DeMark (40:15.372)
and it's going to help their individuals actually use that and apply for career paths and jobs. like skills is not a dirty word, right?
Melissa Loble (40:24.329)
Mm -hmm.
Ryan Lufkin (40:24.56)
That's, yeah, yeah. It's funny because we talk about, this is a conversation Melissa and I were having, that prior to COVID, data was a dirty word, right? And one of the things that going fully online really helped people understand is the value of data in understanding student wellbeing and staying on track towards their academic goals. It's been an interesting shift over last four years. I think we'll see that same shift with skills, right? We've got to force that shift in perception.
Sarah DeMark (40:49.442)
Yeah, absolutely.
Melissa Loble (40:49.452)
Yeah, yeah. so powerful. Sarah, thank you so much for being on the pod. This has been so incredible. And I suspect we'll see if we can have you back in 2025 to get the latest of what are you all doing? What are you seeing in the space? How are we evolving in many of the continuums that you shared? So thank you again so much for your time today.
Ryan Lufkin (40:54.52)
This has been awesome. Yeah, thanks, Sarah.
Sarah DeMark (40:57.721)
Thanks.
Sarah DeMark (41:12.129)
Yeah, this was so fun. I love talking about this. So thank you so much for having me.
Melissa Loble (41:16.371)
so great. Thank you.
Ryan Lufkin (41:16.45)
Awesome, thanks, Sarah.
Sarah DeMark (41:18.242)
I love the conversation. Let's keep going.
Ryan Lufkin (41:19.606)
It's fun.
Melissa Loble (41:20.351)
Yes!
