[ARCHIVED] Late policy with multiple attempts on a quiz

[jlbryan]

When using the late policy, If a quiz has been allowed to have multiple attempts and is set to take the highest score, If the newest submission is late the late policy overrides the highest score function and applies the policy to the newest score on the test. Has this been caught in the beta testing? I would think that if the teacher allows the highest score grab on the multiple attempts, that it would apply the late policy only if the newest score was the highest, or override the late policy.

[erinhmcmillan · Accepted solution]

Hi, @volzk 

The idea you referenced has a note at the top as commented by Instructure; it links to the known issue, which states that the ticket has been shelved by the product team. More investigation will be required as the Gradebook is not compatible with the existing functionality.

Thanks,

Erin

[erinhmcmillan]

Hi, Jeremy,

This use case has been considered, though no changes are being pursued at the moment. No configuration will work perfectly for everyone because of the various workflows being used with multiple quiz attempts. And instructors do have a manual override option within their control if they do not want the late policy applied to a grade in the Gradebook. 

Our team will continue to watch how this functionality is used generally among instructors and make any adjustments if necessary in a future release.

Thanks!

Erin

[junyang8]

In our testing of the late and missing policies, we have found the quizzes assignments are not updated by the late/missing policies. Any input? 

[JBeyer]

We have teachers who would love the late policy to work as Jeremy describes, as you monitor this functionality.

[erinhmcmillan]

Hi, Jason,

I checked Canvas Studio and I don't see any feature ideas that suggest this idea. I'd recommend adding it so that our product team knows this use case is important to you! 

Thanks,

Erin

[Mario_Guerra]

We're having this same issue at our institution in a large 800 student course, so manual overrides for this many students is time consuming.  Here's a scenario that should be considered.

A student takes a quiz and makes a reasonable 8/10 for a score. They are told and canvas shows it this way that it will use the highest score of their 3 attempts.  So that 8/10 should be the absolute lowest they can score now. Now the student is prepping for the exam by using another attempt (after the due date)… they get a perfect 10/10! EXCEPT it is 5 days late so they get a -10 penalty and get a zero. Canvas should be comparing the ZERO and the 8/10 and award the 8. However, Canvas compared before the penalty – then awards the 10 minus 10 penalty for a ZERO.  Apply the penalty, then compare the scores – high score wins.

[kmatson]

Canvas I am sorry but I agree with Jeremy. The penalty should only apply to late work not work that was turned in on time so why would the penalty apply to a quiz turned in on time? That doesn't encourage students to try again. 

Erin I am assuming the manual override is to go and mark it not late?

I am very disappointed with the new gradebook and one penalty for everything.  Now we penalize work that was submitted on time. I hope you will consider rewriting this.

Karen Matson

[kmatson]

Erin,

How do we manually change it? I changed it to None in the grade tray which erased the score. I went to SpeedGrader and used the Update Score at the bottom and got a grayed out value in the grade area in SpeedGrader. The score does show in the gradebook but this is a lot of steps to fix this issue. Is there an easier way?

Thank you,

Karen

[kmatson]

Can anyone explain how this works if faculty take the average score? I am confused and will share a screen shot and hope someone can explain this.

Thank you,

Karen

[kowens]

I have formulated an idea that folks in this conversation might support: https://community.canvaslms.com/ideas/14282-make-late-policy-affect-only-attempts-submitted-after-th.... It appears Canvas is aware of the problem and is having conversations about it. Still, consider voting up my idea if you think it's what you're looking for.

[volzk]

Erin,

I see that the original question is about 2 years old, but based on the "idea" submitted by Gene Owens   https://community.canvaslms.com/ideas/14282-make-late-policy-affect-only-attempts-submitted-after-th....   in June 2019 (with recent "action"), this issue is still a problem for many users. 

You wrote:

Our team will continue to watch how this functionality is used generally among instructors and make any adjustments if necessary in a future release.

My question is this:  How are you able to monitor the functionality that *isn't* a feature?  Are there actually instructors who prefer this functionality as is?  Last semester, I didn't use a late policy, and it backfired because students procrastinated and did poorly in the class (and more importantly, their learning suffered throughout the semester).  This semester, I was determined to implement the late policy, however, I am having to go in to each student's scores *one-at-a-time* to adjust the scores to readjust when they have (wisely!) used the quiz *as a practice* for the test!  I do NOT want the Canvas engineers to assume that I like the functionality as-is just because I have my gradebook set up this way.  It is a hassle at best, and I am considering dropping the late policy.

I was told by a Canvas support person that I should just write separate "practice quizzes" corresponding to each individual quiz for the course.  That WOULD solve my problem, however, it is confusing for the students AND very time consuming for me.

Please let us know if there are any adjustments (or even considerations) ahead.  My students are frustrated that they need to let me know every time they have this confusing grade-situation so that I can manually resolve each one. 

Thank you.

Katie Volz

[erinhmcmillan]

Hi, Kathleen,

Most of the monitoring comes from activity in the feature ideas space, so that idea is the best place to continue to gain support. The Ideas space is where our product team keeps track of how customers gauge current functionality. Considerations for feature enhancements also have to be prioritized with existing projects and timelines, so even if it's something our product team could explore, it may not be able to do something they can do immediately. 

I can understand how this lack of functionality would be frustrating for you! Would you confirm that your use case is noted in the idea to help our team see your specific needs? 

Thanks!

Erin

[kowens]

Erin,

It does not appear that Canvas understands that the issue that Katie and I (and many others) have been describing is a bug that needs to be fixed. I initiated a new feature request only because Canvas suggested that I do so, not because I believe a new feature is needed. The existing feature just needs to function correctly, and I was hoping that if I jumped through the hoops, a solution would be implemented. Here we are almost 9 months later, and nothing. I am disappointed that Canvas is not taking this seriously.

Gene

[erinhmcmillan]

Hi, Gene,

Thanks for clarifying the concern. While our support team does the best they can to triage behaviors, we definitely want to make sure your concerns are being heard. I checked with our product manager to confirm this discussion and he said they will identify this behavior as a bug and will work to correct it!

Thanks,

Erin

[volzk]

Gene,

Are you still having these issues?  I am, and I am wondering if I am not alone... I thought this bug was reported as fixed.  Just wondering if you are still dealing with this issue too.  It seems that they think the issue is resolved, but it isn't...

Katie

[kowens]

When I said "almost 9 months later," I was speaking of my involvement with this issue. I notice that this thread began February 9, 2018. Sorry, Canvas, but 2 years is more than enough time for your team to get this fixed.

[volzk]

Hi Erin,

As Gene has already stated - this is not a feature suggestion, but the only place we are able to let you know about this bug/glitch.  I would think that even just ONE report of this should have triggered a response to fix the issue.  

Any instructor who would use these two functionalities at the same time would want them used with the late policy only going into effect with respect to an INDIVIDUAL attempt.

Please pass this information along to someone who can update the programming to correct the error!

Katie 

[kowens]

Katie, I don't think Canvas gets it! I feel your frustration.

[erinhmcmillan]

Apologies for the miscommunication about this behavior! Does https://community.canvaslms.com/docs/DOC-18005 address this same concern?

Thanks,

Erin

[volzk]

Hi Erin,

The link you sent does address the concern.  Thank you for taking this seriously!

Katie 

[erinhmcmillan]

Wonderful. Thanks for the confirmation! That fix is currently in progress and we'll get it out into the production environment as quickly as we can.

Thanks,

Erin

[amagnier]

Any update on the bug Erin? It has been two years that users have been notifying you of this problem. This is a major pain. A lot of us are using quizzes to have our students prep for the exams and it should be fair for students to be penalized if they give another attempt to their quiz..

[erinhmcmillan]

Hi, Alexandre,

Looks like the team has been working on this for a few months (and unfortunately Covid set them back a bit), but they are actively working on it, even as late as today. They're getting close.

Thanks,

Erin

[volzk]

Hi Erin,

Thanks for the update, and Alexandre, thanks for bringing this up!  This will be a really important feature for so many of us as we manage courses online this Fall.  Do you expect it to be complete by late August?  Thank you!

Katie Volz

[erinhmcmillan]

Hi, Kathleen,

They're still working on it.  The best way to keep up with the status of a ticket would be to report a support case. Ask to have your case associated to EVAL-134.

Thanks,

Erin

[Nancy_Webb_CCSF]

Hi @erinhmcmillan - thanks very much for the link to the current issue for this topic.  The URL in the new community is https://community.canvaslms.com/t5/Current-Issues/New-Gradebook-Late-Policies-and-Multiple-Quiz-Atte...

It is marked as complete as of 8/12/20, but apparently it hasn't been deployed yet, it's not listed in the 9/9 deploy or other earlier deploies.  I will get a help ticket so I can follow this issue, appreciate the case number EVAL-134.  I am not exactly sure what the fix is - this is what the current issue says, perhaps that is what the change will be.  Since you were the last one to edit that page, perhaps you know, Erin?

To be determined by Product, however,

• Average: It seems better to only subtract points from the late submission(s), and then average all the submissions.
• Highest: It seems better to not penalize the On-Time submission if it is the highest.

[cms_hickss]

Thank you for this update/post as we just had a teacher encounter this issue and your response was perfectly timed.

We honestly thought the two functions worked in the "apply penalty then compare for highest grade" order. 

[erinhmcmillan]

Hi @Nancy_Webb_CCSF 

I hadn't been able to get back to this and update it yet, but this ticket only resolves the behavior for Old Quizzes. I'll need to go back and update deploy notes to reflect the change, and I'll link here when I get that finished!

Thanks,

Erin

[volzk]

Hi Erin,

I thought that you shared that this had been fixed.  However, this semester I am having the same issue again.  A student took a Canvas quiz "on time" and scored 100%.  She then took another attempt later, to study for her test, and the late penalty applied, and THAT SCORE was kept in the gradebook.  (I have it set up to keep the highest score.)  So the problem has persisted, despite the report that this issue had been resolved.  

Thanks for looking into it further.

Katie

[volzk]

@erinhmcmillan Erin, can you please update us as to whether this is going to be part of an update in the near future?  I thought you had let us know that it was fixed, but the functionality has not yet changed.  THANKS!

Katie

[erinhmcmillan]

Hi, are you using new quizzes or old quizzes?

[volzk]

Hi Erin,

I’m using classic quizzes. Should that even matter?  Seems like this is a gradebook issue that should be programmed for both types of quizzes. 
Thanks!

Katie

[erinhmcmillan]

Hi, Katie
If you're still seeing this issue, I'd recommend submitting a ticket again, as it was originally resolved for Classic Quizzes.
Thanks,
Erin

[volzk]

Thanks, Erin,  

I just called Canvas Support, and they are looking into it  (again).  

Katie

[volzk]

Hi everyone,

I'm sorry to add to this conversation AGAIN, but I think we really need to come together and let Canvas know that this BUG has not been fixed.  I think we all may have "missed it" when Erin asked us if the link (above) addressed the same concern.  It was a good start, but still hasn't fixed every scenario with the problem.  So...you may see the problem LESS but it's not gone.  Here's an example:

A student takes the quiz and scores 8/10.  Then she takes the quiz again (late) to study for the test, and again scores 10/10.  But the late policy applies since the "highest" score came late!!  UGH!!  This is ALSO happening if the student scores the same with BOTH on time and late attempts.  The late penalty is being applied.

This is very frustrating and Erin Hallmark said I should start a new ticket with Canvas Support.  I am considering pasting my entire back-and-forth thread with a Level 2 Canvas Support person, who is telling me that this programming is doing what it is supposed to do. 

I think Canvas needs to hear from more people about this.  How do we go about it?  Can you believe that the Level 2 Support person just told me to SUBMIT A FEATURE IDEA??????  This is what got us started... wasn't that about 3 years ago!!!?????!!!!!!   

Thanks for any support, here, colleagues.  Is the only idea to beg our institutions to find another LMS that takes our bug-reports seriously?!

Katie

[erinhmcmillan]

Hey, Katie,

Yes, they let me know that they are. And they've found some behavior that is contrary to what we all thought was supposed to happen. They're checking into a few more things and will get back to me as well.

Canvas support is always the best way to get something resolved. The Community is great as a place to let others know about a situation, and Support is always standing by to take the triage to the next level and review the behavior more specifically. The ticket I was reviewing that noted the behavior has been resolved was obviously not clear in its intention, which is why support is kindly reviewing again to make sure we're all on the same page here and know what needs to be done to move forward.

Thanks,

Erin

[volzk]

Thanks, Erin.  I appreciate your help with this.

Katie

[volzk]

Erin,

Any updates?  There's an old (Archived) idea related to this conversation that has had more recent posts with others having the same issue.  (I'll include the link below.)  Any updates would be appreciated, as I have had to manually adjust a bunch of scores again recently.  THANKS for any help/info you can provide!  

https://community.canvaslms.com/t5/Idea-Conversations/Make-late-policy-affect-only-attempts-submitte...

-Katie

[erinhmcmillan · Accepted solution]

Hi, @volzk 

The idea you referenced has a note at the top as commented by Instructure; it links to the known issue, which states that the ticket has been shelved by the product team. More investigation will be required as the Gradebook is not compatible with the existing functionality.

Thanks,

Erin

[james_whalley]

Can we pull this off the shelf? Quizzes will be around for another year and we would like everything to work properly.