Episode 7 | Time is running out. But are we ready to deliver lifelong learning?
Welcome to EduCast3000. It's the most transformative time in the history of education. So join us as we break down the fourth wall and reflect on what's happening, The Good, The Bad and even the chaotic. Here's your host, Melissa Lobel and Ryan Lufkin, Hey there, and welcome to this episode of the EduCast 3000 podcast. I'm your host, Ryan Lufkin, and I'm your other host, Melissa Loble, and thanks again for joining us. We have an amazing guest this morning, afternoon, depending on where you are in the world, Mark Bramwell, who's the Director of Strategic digital partnerships at Oxford. Mark, welcome to the podcast. Hi Ryan. Hi Melissa. Thanks so much for having me. It's wonderful to have you here, Mark. We've known you for a long time. You've done some incredible work over the years, but our audience doesn't know you very well yet, at least. So would you mind just sharing a little bit about your role at Oxford. What you do? I know you wear two hats, so maybe share a little bit about that, and then maybe you know tidbit or two about you personally, just so the audience can get to know you Yeah, of course. Melissa, so I'm Mark Bramwell. I'm, as you say, I'm currently wearing two hats for the university. So by day, I'm the Chief Information Officer of side business school, University of Oxford. And then I'm also wearing a dual hat in terms of, as Ryan introduced me the Director of Strategic digital partnerships, which is a fantastic role that gets me to work with lots of wonderful partners, such as Instructure, in terms of looking at mutual benefits, mutual partnership opportunities across Oxford and our partner ecosystem, and just a little bit sort of historically, I've had a very wide and varied background. It says starting, having done 16 years in high street retail, nine years in medical research and not for profit, and now coming up for 10 years in higher education. So it's been a very wide and varied career and career path, but I think it stood me in some great stead and given me the opportunity to develop some great learnings in some different organizations and different cultures along the way. Yea, amazing ability to bring those learnings to different verticals. So Mark, one of the things that we love to do is ask our guests to actually share one of their favorite learning moments. We all have those moments that kind of changed our path from educators. Tell us if you have one, I have a couple. Actually, Ryan, which is going to sound very cliche, I wouldn't say I have a particular standout learning moment, because I genuinely feel that I learn every day, every week, every month, from everybody. I'm not one of those people who thinks I know everything, far from it, and I take great value, and it's great privilege learning from different people, whether it be my team, my senior management team, customers, stakeholder, students, that I sort of interact with. And you always take those little snippets of things that make an impression of you, and think I want to do that, and I want to replicate that, and I want to be more like that. So you try and build this persona so, so probably the sort of mold that is Mark brownwell is a combination of hundreds or 1000s of people that I've had the great privilege and honor of meeting during my career. There is one thing that does stand out with me. It was a little bit of advice, and it's not necessarily about learning. It's probably more about the personal well being and welfare. And somebody always said to me, he says, If you don't take the time to look after yourself. How can you be expected to look after others? Yes, and that's always sort of stood me in good stead in terms of thinking about quality of life, work, life balance and equally, applying it to myself and my teams. And I think it's been a really great, safe piece of advice that stuck with me for a long time. Yeah, I think that's incredibly important to make sure you're prioritizing your own health, your own wellness, to make sure that you're doing the best for others. That's I love that approach and being focused on that can also help you focus on encouraging others to do the same thing, which I think is really important, especially in today's world with everything that's going on. And I think the stressors are more intense than they've ever been before. So I love that piece of advice and that learning moment, and all of those learning moments that I've made up you, yeah, thank you. It makes you think back to like, your own moments, those moments that you had really Oh, I remember. I remember when William Otis Wilson, a friend of mine, called me out for not asking more questions about others, right? It made me want to do that, right? You remember those little moments of your own. So I love that approach. Mark, yeah, so let's start with an overview. Today we're talking about skills, green skills, you know, for Europe, the ESG skills, for those not familiar, let's talk about what does that mean? Okay, and there's a lot of overlap in terms of green and in ESG and sustainability, but that they're also subtly different in terms of what they mean. So obviously, in a sort of European, UK, Oxford context, the ESG is environmental, social and governance, and it does bleed, and it does overlap into into sustainability, but the types of skills that are sort of required for those or prerequisite are very much sort of developing. And growing in the workplace as organizations and cultures, quite rightly and quite understandably take on the ESG and the sustainability agenda as part of their corporate strategies, and it's very much now not a case of ESG and green and sustainability being a differentiator. It's a given, yeah. And so recruiters and employers will really struggle if that's not forefront of mind of an organization and an organizational culture. Yeah, it has to be embedded in the way that you do business. And I say it's not because you have to, it's because it's the right thing to do, and the types of skills that we're seeing around that, and as a business school and as a University of Oxford, we take that very seriously, so we've gone as far in terms of sustainability as being ISO 14,001 accredited. We're progressing additional ISO 45,001 as we speak, which means that we embed these processes in the way that we do our day to day business, and the skills that we've seen, that we've noticed around that all that are being increasingly needed for organizations is number one leadership. So to drive the green, sustainable ESG agenda needs strong, passionate leadership, top down, across all levels of an organization. Because if you haven't got the buy in, then it's not going to succeed. And if you can't be influential in championing and being a better it's not going to succeed. To support that, you've got to be a really good communicator. You've got to explain the why and the purpose. You know that's really important. You've got to get that buy in at every level within the organization. You've also got to be a little bit analytical, because you need to be able to measure what the difference is before and after, and in measuring the difference, you need to know where you're starting from. There's no point embarking on a journey and going, haven't we done? These are great benefits. Oh, but we can't remember where we started or what the difference has been. So you've got to be slightly analytical around it, and you've got to have a degree of expertise, you know? You've got to be convincing. You've got to understand what this means. And as part of that, an element of that is being pragmatic and understanding around what the risk management, what the risk agenda for an organization is, because many of these items require time, effort, resource investment, changes to ways of doing things, changes to processes. So you've got to be sort of commensurate and pragmatic around what the organizational impact is around those. And then finally, I think a key one is innovative. You need innovation because some of these challenges require innovative out of the box thinking to find solutions to them, to make them better. So it's a bit of a portfolio of skills. And as I say, it's at the moment, it's still a relatively rare role function within an organization, and those roles are very much still being co created, co developed, but you are starting to increasingly see more prominent executive director level roles who are purely focused on sustainability, ESG and the green agenda. What are some of the skill what are some examples of green skills? Well, I think green skills, you know, the things we've spoken about, it's about ensuring that across an organization, everybody really understands what the agenda is and what it means for them. It's about creating that collective effort so green skills for me and my IT world are about repurposing, recycling, upcycling old IT equipment, not sending it to landfill. As an example on that, we send all of our old laptops and equipment. We partner with a charity called the Turing trust, and they are just they are white, open source education software is put on them, and they're redistributed to schools in Africa, particularly Malawi, to give African school children access to education. So that's equipment that would have otherwise been in a landfill. If I think about our estates and our catering team, it's about food waste, and it's about red meat, and it's about moving more towards vegetarian and plant based foods to make the organization more more efficient, more healthy, to support the wellbeing agenda. So it's about different skills, for me, Ryan, in different departments, and understanding what does that overall agenda mean for that department, and how can it be applied, and how can we all do our own bit to support that strategy and that agenda? Yeah, and I think that's definitely one area where, you know, the United Kingdom, Europe, they're definitely more advanced than we are in the US, but we have programs. A friend of mine, Scott Henley, is the executive director of Digi unity, and we'll provide a leak in there, but they're an organization of nonprofit here in the US that does exactly that. They recycle used equipment provided for schools. So the resources are there. We just need to understand that and know those are options. I think the other important thing Ryan around that is about having the awareness, the commitment, the empowerment, the focus to do it. Very often there are no obstacles to do it, but people sit waiting for the invitation. It's about creating a culture where people understand that they are empowered to do it and they don't have to wait for an invitation. Yeah, it's that particular piece. As Ryan said, we're seeing this in various areas of the world, and particularly in Europe, really become an important perspective and role that organizations are. Taking, whether they're corporate organizations or educational institutions, but we're still it's still fairly isolated, where you've got some innovators out there doing this work, regardless of what country you're in, and others are waiting and seeing. Do you have any sort of advice for those instant higher education institutions out there, like, how do you get this agenda going so that you're not waiting for that invitation. That's a great question, Melissa, because I think we also have to be realistic that particularly within higher education, you're very often talking about highly devolved, complex, multi department, multi divisional, dispersed campuses. And if I take Oxford, you know, it's an 800 year old university, so sustainability and energy efficiency probably wasn't forefront of mind 800 years ago, right? Yeah, you know, there are lots of challenges that you have to be realistic, which goes into that risk management. But that doesn't mean that you shouldn't be afraid. You know, it's very easy to look at it and go, that's too big and complex. We're not going to do anything at all? And that's entirely the wrong answer as well. So it's about thinking it sounds very cliche. It's about taking one step. You know, all great journeys start with one step, and that's where you have to do it. And you have to do it by creating a culture where you deliver little and often. You create a culture of successes. You create a culture of being able to measure what the impact of those successes are whilst being realistic around what's achievable and we wouldn't be in higher education if we didn't have a good old two by two matrix. Which went which of those are the initiatives that are quick to do with a high return on benefit versus those that are difficult to do with a low return on benefit? So let's make sure we're focusing on the right things first. Yeah,
right. And taking, I imagine, I'll say advantage, but taking, there's other initiatives that are feeding into this that can help you. So you know, your comments about 800 year old university, there's, there's history in the buildings and structure, and just thinking about, how do you transition? That is almost overwhelming to me, thinking about that takes change management to a whole new level, right? Absolutely. And I can think about that with some of the institutions in other countries. So maybe you wait, you don't start there, you start somewhere else, like you're saying smaller wins that are easier to obtain while you're working on the harder hills to climb in making these transitions, I know at Instructure, we've done the same kind of thing where there are areas where we've been able to make quick strides, and we're really excited about that, while we're digging into some of the, you know, the more complex things, like physical spaces and things like that, absolutely Melissa and I think it's also about ensuring that, as you say, You're ingraining Those, those practices, those principles, those processes, into new things, so you're not replicating the legacy. So for example, Business School is very excited to be opening a brand new 65 million pound Global Leadership Center in the spring of next year, 2025 all of the things around energy consumption, water repurposing, water recycling, air source, heat pumps, solar paneling have been built in by design from day one. So it's about learning. So you can't boil the ocean, yeah, at the same time, but you can gradually, on a step basis, you know, pivot and change and make a difference as you go along, so that the legacy over time becomes the minimum, not the majority, that's actually building it into the new programs. Is actually an interesting segue into the conversation around AI, which is one of the hot topics. We talk about it a lot here on the podcast, but the green angle here is really interesting, because one of the side effects of this very intelligent leap forward is massive energy consumption, right? And so it's, how is AI adding some complexities to this idea of green skills and this green movement in general, as you say, right on the face of it, it's a conflicted sort of juxtaposition around the massive data centers and processing that are required to process this AI. And it's, it is actually a very good question of some of the big data center providers around the Microsofts, the AWS and the Googles of this world to go actually, guys, what are you doing to sort out this? We've been investing all of this time over the past, you know, one, 510, years, to enhance our green agenda, our ESG agenda, to make a difference to the planet. And all of a sudden, overnight, we're now compromising. Now we're doing that. Yeah, yeah. So I'd love to say, here's the answer to that, right? I don't know the answer to that. It's interesting because we're a year and a half into this kind of generative AI revolution, and it feels like it's only been the last couple months that we started talking about, oh, geez, this is taking a lot of energy, right? So I can imagine there's other side effects that we'll be uncovering in the future that we've got to be prepared for. And one can only hope that the pace in which this new technology has been developed will be a similar pace in terms of the efficiency of its processing and its data center utilization moving forward. So let's hope so well and to tackle these kinds of questions, clearly there needs to be skills developed. In at least your learning experiences, to understand these complex situations, to understand ESG, to understand how to think differently or to be innovative, like you all have described. Have you pulled that into your curriculum at all, or either in the business school or more broadly, at Oxford? How are you thinking about that? Do you even have? I've seen one or two micro credentials surface around this to develop this expertise. What are you all thinking about at Oxford, around how you develop this, these kinds of skills to help graduates go out and be innovative in this way, wherever they join after graduation? That's
a great question, Melissa, because you know, we at Oxford, and I'm sure I know we're not unique in this. We've anticipated this, and we know that it's part of the corporate agenda, and these are part of the life skills that employers are looking for in terms of making our students job ready when they graduate and matriculate from us. So just to give a couple of examples, you know, our MBA program now has the sustainability theme built into its core curriculum. We are running separate programs now, diplomas, certificates, online programs specifically around sustainability, and that might be not just pure sustainability, but things like economic and financial sustainability and the differences and the challenges that are presented around that investment property and prop tech, in terms of what that means for the sustainability agenda. So we're trying to anticipate this knowing a, that it's current B, that it's the skills that our students will expect to be exposed to when they come to Oxford, and C, more importantly, that it's going to enhance their job prospects when they graduate from us, because they're the skills that employers are going to expect. Yeah,that's incredible. Yeah, it seems like an area that would be especially benefited by corporate higher ed partnerships, right? Really working with employers and evolving companies in the green fields, things like that. You're absolutely right. Ryan and this, this is going to sound a, very cliche. B, very obvious. The best way to understand what employers in big industry need in terms of the skills of the students is to partner and talk to them. You know, it's not rocket science. So we have a fantastic careers team at the business school that spends a lot of time talking to big industry, talking to prospective employers, trying to understand and anticipate what are the skills they want. And then we have a very collaborative sort of environment, cross team working culture, where those can be fed into the degree programs, curricular teams to ensure that we're meeting those. And then it becomes almost like a virtual circle, because that then allows us to feed into our recruitment policies, so that when we're advertising to go, hey guys, high prospective students, look at the skills you're going to learn if you come to sire Business School, Oxford. So it becomes self fulfilling and rewarding in terms of that circle. And it's a continuous circle, because, you know, we're talking about sustainability and digital skills and AI today, who knows what it might be next year? Oh, yeah, or in three years time. I think that's what is crazy. Is, you know, generative AI kind of came out of the blue. It has a lot of people thinking, Well, what's next? How do we anticipate what's next? How do we be more nimble to address those emerging technologies? And I think that is one of the biggest challenges and opportunities facing higher education. Brian and Melissa, the world is changing so quickly. We need to make sure that that is reflected in the curriculum, in the skills and how can we do that? I'm not over exaggerating to say that a course curriculum can change within the year that it's being taught. You know that is how quickly things are changing now,
and that's not traditionally, how quickly, how nimble higher education has been. But there is the opportunity there. I love that you call it an opportunity as well as a challenge. It is an opportunity. I think the difference is in the opportunity. How many institutions embrace versus deny those opportunities? And it's the ones that embrace it, are the ones that will continue to move forward, that will continue to offer world class student experiences, will provide better job prospects than those that don't. Yeah, I could not agree more. You know, I think about I teach a class. I've talked about this on the podcast before, and it's in part of a credential program around e learning, design, and my course, like, I teach it twice a year, and I have about a four month gap between the two terms that I teach in. And right at the end of the last time i The second to last time I taught, this is when really the tools out there, especially for course design and things like that, AI started to influence them. So I made a very fast pivot for my next course, and rewrote my course so that it really embedded the use of these tools. But I was able to do that because I sat in a certificate program. I didn't have to go through all of the hoops for credit and review and all of that stuff that maybe a traditional program, or that was in an undergraduate program, might have to go through. So I'm curious. I'm going to pivot us a little bit. You all offer it at Oxford, and you've really led all sorts of permutations of learning experiences to address learners. At every stage of their journey. Why have you done that, and how do you think that may help address some of this need for being able to have rapid change or innovation given how fast society is innovating around us. Thanks, Melissa. And this is a personal view, but I think it hopefully resonates more broadly. Learning is an incredibly personal experience. So if you want to come to Oxford and do a three year undergraduate degree, you can do, if you want to come to the business school and do a one year postgraduate MBA, you can do if you want to do a six week online program you can do, if you want to do a three day in person Executive Education course you can do, if you want to do a four hour micro credential, you can do the choice is there, and it's there to try and make a to fulfill the need B, to be personal in supporting the best personalized learning experience possible. But ultimately, the objective is a the student experience and to make that person the best person they can be as a result of that learning experience, whatever they choose that to be. The idea that Oxford with, you know, a story to history is that university has is focused on being that flexible and that personal is pretty amazing. If Oxford can show everyone should be able to do it right, yeah. And I think that's just the step of where we are today, Ryan, that the future in terms of and I know this comes with ethical frameworks and guidelines and risks and benefits, etc, but I think the future, potential opportunities of things like AI to take that personalized learning experience to the next level are immense within those ethical guidelines, something that's really struck me. And you know, as we've talked over the years as well, you don't have to lose tradition. So there's a steeped tradition in who Oxford is and what they deliver, and there's a history behind that. But you don't, I think institutions get concerns that they start to lose their history or tradition or brand or so many things by diversifying their portfolio or straying from what they've done so well for so incredibly long. How did you all grapple with that and work through that? And it would be fair to say, Melissa, that there was quite some debate around that as we diversified our portfolio. But it then comes back to that, you know, as we were saying, We've got to make sure that we don't lose sight of this being student centric and keeping the student at the heart of this. We are here as the University of Oxford today to support a community of 24,000 physical on premise students. We also have an online community at the Business School of over 40,000 owners who've gone through our online programs. The irony is that's almost twice the size of the physical university, so you're quite right. It's not about diversifying to dilute the brand. It's about diversifying to exploit and leverage the brand. And we need to be make sure that we are, as you say, making Oxford accessible to learners in geographies, in communities that might not previously have been possible, or a don't necessarily have the opportunity to physically come to Oxford. So I think that's the mission, the message and the purpose, and by doing that, we can only sort of expand on our brand and our portfolio and our numbers of learners by reaching out to different markets using different technologies and having that diverse portfolio. It's reaching out to students at different stages of their careers than maybe previously were. Right? You know, we look more at this kind of lifelong learning approach and the need for reskilling and upskilling throughout our careers. So there's, there's an aspect of reaching learners at every stage, right, not just those undergraduate or those seeking graduate programs, 100% Brian and all of our aspirations. I think every higher education institute you talk to, their aspiration would be to develop, grow, foster and maintain lifelong learning. It's that whole sort of, not quite cradle to grave, but almost everything, from that first inquiry to a program to an admission to a learning experience, to a graduation, to becoming an alumni, to joining a business, to going into executive education, and then hopefully becoming a an ambassador, a coach or mentor. And if we get it right, maybe sometimes a donor to the institution. And then through that, you can cross fertilize different opportunities around different learning experiences. And this is where Melissa's point around where micro credentials really come in, to actually fine tune and hone into specific skills that are practical and practitioner, not just academic, into that need to make that person successful in their job. Are you finding that your learners that come in and graduate, or where to however you reference, that earn credentials. Take these programs that aren't the traditional programs. Are they having success, both moving in their career where they might be wanting to move, and that's why they took these is where the why they're upscaling, or even, are they having success and really applying those practice? Traditional experiences, or do we still have a gap, like, is there we're creating, you're creating all this, this great choice. Is there still a gap in how organizations are ingesting that new approach or respecting this new approach as they're moving employees along in their journeys and their own organizations? I think that's a great question, if I'm honest, from a personal perspective, Melissa, I think it's a little bit of a gap at the moment, because although we support and nurture a learner through that experience, one of the things we're not very good at, or it's very difficult to do, is measure the organization on the personal impact that has post completing the course or the program, once they've gone and come back. You know, we can have all the usual things such as surveys and feedback loops, but it's a moment in time we really need to understand, over a period of time, where that learning, that applied learning, has made a difference in the institution or the organization that they've taken that back into, and that almost goes out to the extended coaching and mentoring support that might be provided for that learner on an individual basis. And I think that's where things like aI have huge potential. Yeah, yeah, we talked about that, that capacity for personalization and really providing a unique experience, that's the unique idea I hadn't thought about, is actually support beyond the actual course experience, right? Yeah, absolutely. It will never substitute the face to face human intervention. But there is also, I think, proven research that shows some people are actually more open and more freer with their views and opinions if they're talking to a virtual person, yeah, yeah. So as you look at the future, kind of, you know, we've talked about like this change, pace of change, what's next? Are you prepared for what may be coming down the road, or this fast pace of change? Well, I think the oddest initial answer to that, right, not to avoid your your question is, I don't think anybody knows what's I certainly don't, but I think what you have to do is to try and create future looking, forward looking teams who are able to be agile and pivot when these things happen, because, because we started at beginning, it's much better to be on the pitch embracing these technologies than trying to play catch up. Because as a CIO, I know that if we're not doing that, my organization is going to be doing it anyway without me. So it's much better to be on the pitch, supporting it and acknowledging it, embracing it. They're not so really just fostering that preparedness, that openness to change, right? Absolutely. But you know, in terms of what does the future bring, in terms of higher education? I mean, we've touched a little bit on it. I think if we go sort of blue sky thinking, but it's not really blue sky, it's the technologies are available to do this today, having a portfolio of choice where a learner can inquire, interrogate, build, deliver, go through a highly personalized learning experience which is just for them, a degree, a diploma, a micro credential which is uniquely specific to that individual based on some criteria or skills needs or development needs that they've expressed, I think is the next step. And I don't think that is blue sky thinking, because I think that's available today, the technologies that are there and available to support that today. What I love about that So Ryan, Ryan is on this podcast, our AI nerd. I'm going to call you that, Ryan. I hope that's okay. I tend to be the learning, a little bit of the pedagogy nerve, like everything you just described there, around that portfolio of choice and how somebody to have learned, a learner takes agency in that portfolio. That's the best of constructivism, challenge based learning, problem based learning, social learning. It's like the best of all of that, which gets me really excited about the future as well, because there's so much we know about how the brain works and how how we learn. Let's create these environments, just as you described, in which we can thrive as learners and we can create our future change agents for society within our organizations, which is so empowering well.
And I love Mark, I love your optimism, because I think there's so it can be very easy to feel overwhelmed or go negative on some of these changes. And I think the view of you and Oxford is very positive, and looks at the opportunity in a way that I think is very helpful for our listeners. For me, I like it. I tend to be an optimist, but I love to hear it from you, the practitioner.
I think the reality, Ryan is it is slightly overwhelming, if I'm honest, but It's sink or swim, isn't it? As you ride the wave, or you ride the wave and you hold on, and you either go, cool, that was a thrill, that was exciting, and you move on to the next one, or you don't, you don't get on the ride, and then you listen to everybody else how exhilarating and fantastic it was. So I think we prefer to be the former, but it's not without sort of acknowledging, as you say, we are progressing without having the answers to everything, and that can be quite a scary place for people to be. But without progressing, you can't actually form the answers or the policies or the processes. So to be. Chicken and egg. Yeah. Oh yeah, yeah. So we always wrap up mark with a question for our guests, and it's what Didn't we talk about that we should be talking about. Any thoughts on, on something we should have raised, a question we should have asked. Or even just more broadly, as a we in this space, what aren't we talking about that we should be talking about? I
think there's two or three things possibly Melissa one is through everything we do, as we say, universities, higher education institutions are incredibly complex, incredibly complex, teaching, researching, professional services, administrative, devolved organizations, and then in all of that, it's important that collectively as organizations. We never lose sight of the student the student experience and the learner experience, because that's what we're there for. That's what we're there to provide. That's what we're there to support. We are there to create the next generation of skilled people, the skilled workforce, the people who are going to make a difference on this planet in terms of social impact, and if we can get that right, then we've done our job. And I don't want to say, you know, finish this podcast harder downer, but the world is a very volatile place at the moment, and it's the next generation of people that we are teaching, learning, developing, who are genuinely going to be the next generations who might have a chance to turn this round and get the world on a level footing. That's number one. And then I'll just, I guess I'll leave you with a thought in terms of what, let's be a little bit more positive and futuristic. We're talking about universities. And I obviously talk from a university that's over 800 years old in the future. Who's to say that universities will be physical buildings. Who's to say that they will be physical at all? It could be a virtual university supported by virtual faculty, with AI generated content delivered in an entirely personalized way, with an avatar coach and mentor. That's a lot of people I lot. Yeah, that is interesting, because you put that out there, and a lot of people get very uncomfortable with that kind of scenario, but it's entirely possible. It's
entirely possible. And therefore you might see that universities of the future aren't necessarily sort of academic, educational. They might be big industry, corporate? Yeah, I love positing that out there and challenging us all to think about that, because so much of what you've talked about in our conversation, there's an underlying thread of human connection. And I think what's really interesting about what could the future look like, and how could it be very different? Could a university be very different? While that strand is so true and is so interesting to start to think about, there's also this element of, how do we make deep human connection in the future as well? And that goes to your first point about this is the generation that could be changing or turning around some of the pretty intense volatility that we see around us every single day. So I love those two combined, because it really does. These are things we need to be talking about in education, and we're so busy talking about, what certificate programs do we have here, and what are we doing with our enrollment declines, and some of those other things that are very right in front of us and not thinking about the bigger vision for the future. Thank you.
Yeah, I love that, and thank you on that. Yeah, thank you for joining us. This your perspective is amazing, honestly viable for me. Hopefully our listeners found it valuable as well, but can't thank you enough for being on the show. Mark, thanks, Ryan, thanks, Melissa, thanks for having me along. Thanks for listening to this episode of Educast 3000 don't forget to like subscribe and drop us a review on your favorite podcast player, so you don't miss an episode. If you have a topic you'd like us to explore more, please email us at instructurecast@instructure.com, or you can drop us a line on any of the socials. You can find more contact info in the show notes. Thanks for listening, and we'll catch you on the next episode of Educast 3000.
