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I heard you like discussion boards, so I created this discussion board for you to discuss discussion boards...
Let the Games Begin! (remember to be nice, be honest, be willing to share!) First one to reply gets a sand dollar!
Sand Dollars and Starfish: Making the Most out of Canvas Discussion Boards
Wednesday, July 10, 2:30 - 3:10...Come and get a sand dollar!
Presented by Bethany Van Vleet and Denise Ann Bodman, Arizona State University.
Hi @dbodman ! I personally LOVE discussion boards and get a lot of use out of them in my courses! Along with that, my students even indicate that *they* like our discussions, which I consider an even bigger win! 🙂
Kona
Yes! That means you are doing it right, Kona! I'd love to see what and how you use discussion boards!
I use them for all sorts of things - traditional & nontraditional. Games, voting (using the like button), class conversation on what methodology we should use to collect the data for our next project, share individual results of research, ask each other for advice, share advice for future students, set goals for the course, reassess goals for the course, and the list goes on... 🙂
I've done a few different presentations on this topic (how to up your discussion game) and love talking about it! 🙂
Kona
Notice how we have had over 90 hits on this board and only one comment. Some people are "listeners" and others are "talkers." How similar is this in a face-to-face setting? Is engagement only posting? https://newlearningtimes.com/cms/article/1209/the-impact-of-listening-online
Setting aside the merits of the article for a moment ...
Is engagement only posting?
The Office of the U.S. Department of Education says in their glossary that it must be "participating in an online discussion" if you are using it to show attendance. It also says that being there but not academically engaged does not count as attendance. Schools usually take that to mean that participation means posting.
You've got a long uphill battle to convince people that just reading is engaging. This is additionally fostered by a lack of audit information to back that up.
Let's say that I wanted to give students credit for engaging just for reading. Technologically, that is going to be difficult for me to do.
Canvas has a "Mark all as read" command that will show that 100% of the replies have been read. Does that have any validity as to whether the student actually read them? That command can also be invoked after the discussion is over, so you don't know that they did it when they discussion was active or they did it the next day but before the teacher graded it.
At one time, Canvas automatically marked replies as read when viewing with a browser but not with the mobile app. I am not sure if this has been fixed, my testing revealed an error in my code that I need to fix, but I don't have time before I have to leave this morning to get that.
Those last two are generally not available to faculty. The information about what percent of messages a student and which messages they have read or which messages they have liked are available to that student. When you fetch that information, you have to be that student, or masquerade as that student. Most faculty do not have the ability to act as a student.
The access report shows number of times and the last time a student viewed the discussion, but that only helps if the number of views is 1. The data used to make that page contains the first time they viewed it, but people have to go to lengths to get at that information, such as the script I wrote to obtain the access report for the entire class.
There are page views, which may not reflect mobile activity either. You have to be an admin to get access to those and they're not broken up by course, all of the student page views are together.
There are analytics, which sounds like a good place, except that page views, which are similar to the access report and not like the web page views in the last paragraph, are clumped together into the number of page views that happen each hour and not which page views happened. Only participations, which is where the students post or edit, are listed with dates and times.
Reading leaves no accurate trail that can be used for assessing how much time was spent reading.
Time spent isn't necessarily indicative of participation either. I'm a slow reader, but I read very deeply. I may spend hours reading something, pondering, analyzing, and then deciding that what I have to write is either not beneficial, doesn't contribute significantly, or unintentionally upsets people because I tend to be a factual person and don't emote or understand people who do.
Likewise, I don't consider coming to class and reading facebook or doing work for your other classes to be attendance. I lump attendance, participation, and engagement into one thing in my syllabus.
For a discussion, direct engagement can only be measured effectively by posting. If you want to see if they engaged by reading, it needs to be done through another assessment of the student.
I desperately want to tell my students that their grade is not based off what they know, it's based off what they can demonstrate.
Wow! You have provided lots of interesting information and food for thought. Considering metrics may help guide instructors in designing classes that educate and enhance all involved.
Re: the US Dept of Education definitions: How we decide if someone gets money back related to financial aid is not meant to be a pedagogical guide to online teaching standards. Some faculty may choose to operationalize "engagement" as posting on a discussion board; others may choose different criteria. I think it's important that we don't always consider posting as "engagement," either. A student could post "I agree" on the discussion board and not be considered actively engaged by a teacher but will be considered so by DOE financial aid.
Discussion boards can be used in numerous, creative ways that may enhance learning and can encourage engagement (including "minds on" engagement...if I have a student who applies something the student read and/or posted on in a discussion board to another class and another discussion board, I can infer some minds-on engagement). Kona has shared some excellent examples of discussion board use (and we hope to provide instructors with more) beyond the typical use. Sometimes, we may undervalue or not recognize something that is coming out of a discussion board.
Perhaps the core of the issue is what is "learning" and what is an "education?" As technology expands, allowing new and unique ways to measure, the answers may change.
I was mostly talking about the lack of metrics and how it is impossible for most of us to measure anything other than posts. We don't know if a student refers to our discussion in another class discussion -- yet that's included in the other assessment I was talking about.
Kona does a much better job with her discussions than I do. My students are face to face and struggle with the notion that they should have to do things outside of class. She says her online students expect that they'll have to do that.
I grade my discussions on an awesome, good, okay, fair, poor, none scale, so the "I agree" doesn't get them much. The none includes "nowhere close to the assignment." The problem I experience the most is that students what to do what they've done for all their other courses "post once, reply twice" and that isn't going to get get them much more than a fair to okay grade in my class.
Sounds like your presentation could have a lot of interesting takeaways from it.
So, you use discussion boards (graded) with your face-to-face classes? That's a whole discussion in itself!! Online vs. face-to-face discussion boards! I teach both face-to-face and online; in my ftf, I only have "voluntary" discussion boards for student interactions but students rarely use them. My ftf classes are very "chatty" and interactive in the classroom. Sometimes, I set up groups for projects and students tend to use the discussion boards organically in that circumstance.
"The problem I experience the most is that students want to do what they've done for all their other courses "post once, reply twice" and that isn't going to get get them much more than a fair to okay grade in my class." THAT is what we are hoping to help people rethink (as well as rethinking having TAs simply enter scores based on the indication that the student posted something!!).
Finally...You are DEFINITELY onto something with metrics. In general, we have found most of the studies of discussion boards (especially related to outcomes) as poorly measured and poorly designed. Yikes!
I give them a handout the first day of class on discussions. This spring, I spent two weeks having them go through a discussion from a previous semester and try to determine what grade the student deserved. This was first done individually with a piece of paper containing just the data. Then in groups with another copy of the paper.
After a while, I told them I really used the rubric for both the initial posts and the followup discussion separately and had them do it again. We turned it into a multiple regression project (at the start of the course) and look minimum sum of squared deviations to see who got the closest to what I actually gave with some bonus points awarded for those who got the closest. They had to decide which variables should be used for the grading and how to weight each portion.
There were some discussions about discussions in there, where students were encouraged to explain why they gave the grades they gave. They also talked about things that cannot be reflected in the data like the quality of the posts -- just because you wrote a lot doesn't mean that you said a lot.
I'm a Canvas Admin as well, so I have access to some of those metrics that normal folks don't. Here's the variables they were given to start with.
We talked about creating additional variables, like the average length of a followup post (students might do a long initial post but short followups). We even applied some logarithm transforms to try to deskew the data. We even pulled the data into Minitab and generated a p-value to see if their model was useful for prediction.
What I discovered at the end of the semester was that I was pressed for time because I had blown two weeks at the beginning talking about discussions. But that's okay, I skipped the project at the end on multiple regression since I had started with it (although with a different data set).
On my handout that I give them the first day, here is my statement on metrics.
When I grade the discussions, I look at a variety of information such as: time of first post, time of last post, number of sessions, amount written, number of likes received and given, and percent of responses read. That generally narrows your grade down to one or two levels. I then go in and read the posts and make the final decision based on the quality of the posts.
I'm attaching the entire first-day handout on discussions. Discussions are a big struggle for me and it's one of the things I want to rework this summer, but not finding time to do.
This information is truly AWESOME! It looks like you are teaching stats on several levels with this assignment/activity. Because our school switched to Canvas last year, Bethany (my co-presenter) and I retooled all of our online classes and online presence for face-to-face classes. We were FORCED to re-think and learn how Canvas worked (so many helpful people are out there). You need to talk with Bethany because her area is stats and she teaches both upper and lower division. I absolutely LOVE her first discussion assignment, which was fun for the students and provided her with insight into student fears of the class. Hopefully, we can find time during the con to hammer out a few new discussions for all of us!
Can you caption this image and relate the caption to discussion boards?
I'll be there in a minute...it's 11:50pm and my discussion board post is due by midnight!
This is great! On a discussion, no one knows I don't know how to pronounce "meow."
hahahah 😄
This actually reminds me of a face-to-face PD session I was just at. We worked with a table partner to summarize our learning and created a post together. We then responded to another (previously determined) partner’s post.
With that as my recent experience, I would caption this “What do you think”
By the way, I love the idea of creating something like this to spark the discussion in the first place! Very clever!
Alisha,
Your caption is interesting because it reminds me that we often think of our discussion board students working solo and hope to "connect" students in the class by using discussions; however, many of our students may be sharing what they read/learn with others in their "real world" lives. Many of my students tell me that they talk about the online class and discussions with their loved ones, friends, or colleagues, which is really gratifying for me. Thanks for the reminder!!
Isn’t that the best when you find out that students are talking about their learning outside of class!?! I believe it is so important for teachers to create meaningful opportunities for dialogue (regardless of the format) and structure it so that we encourage those authentic conversations.
This was great for planning my PD. Thanks, everyone! I'm curious about how you all feel about the many requests for Canvas to have an anonymous discussion option.....
I think anonymous discussions could be useful if used carefully and monitored closely. For example, we allow anonymous discussions for such topics as "How I Got My A" following an exam.
For most discussions, I think it's good for students to step up and own their post, especially in today's world where social media has allowed anonymity and rudeness.
Denise Ann Bodman (Bustamante), PhD
Barrett Honors Faculty
Principal Lecturer
T. Denny Sanford School of Social and Family Dynamics
Arizona State University
Tempe, Arizona 85287-3701
But we can't do that in Canvas at this time, correct? How are you doing it?
You are correct! It's on Canvas radar, so maybe another post requesting it be considered might help to move it along!
Other options outside of canvas are possible, but will depend on your organization.
denise 😕
Denise Ann Bodman (Bustamante), PhD
Barrett Honors Faculty
Principal Lecturer
T. Denny Sanford School of Social and Family Dynamics
Arizona State University
Tempe, Arizona 85287-3701
@dbodman Thanks for starting this discussion on discussions!
I'm wondering if there is a list somewhere of the upcoming features for discussion boards on Canvas' radar. I've searched through the ideas in content and so far have only found a few ideas up for voting. I did not encounter the anonymous feature you're speaking of (but I'm still sifting through).
I'm also wondering about features like the @mention or tagging that exists in these discussion threads. Would love to see these in Canvas.
My University loves discussions, but our number one request by teachers (regarding the discussion area) is for "anonymous discussions". This request used to just come from Psychology, Social Work, Nursing, and a couple of other medical-related fields. Now we get it from other courses from PolySci to World Religions.
And sadly, this request has been around since 2015: https://community.canvaslms.com/ideas/1117-anonymous-discussion-forums
I agree! There are times when anonymous posts can be very useful. How can we get canvas to make this adjustment?
d
Denise Ann Bodman (Bustamante), PhD
Barrett Honors Faculty
Principal Lecturer
T. Denny Sanford School of Social and Family Dynamics
Arizona State University
Tempe, Arizona 85287-3701
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