Late Grade: Maximum % deduction, NOT minimum grade

[jacob_white]

Problem: While I like the option of an automatic grade deduction for late assignment, as it currently works, the only way to put a "floor" on a late grade is by setting a "lowest possible grade percent."  When I set this to 50%, students with very late work will receive the same grade whether they get 100% correct or 50% correct.  The student who is very late and gets 50% correct actually receives no deduction for being late.

Solution: Allow the option to set a "maximum percent deduction."  In this I could set all very late assignments to be worth half their original value so that 100% accuracy would become 50%, and 50% accuracy would become 25%, but no late assignment would receive less than half it's original value.

[Stef_retired]

 @jacob_white , thanks for sharing this idea. We also have this related idea open for voting at https://community.canvaslms.com/ideas/13109-allow-marks-deductions-for-late-work-to-be-calculated-ba... 

[jack_mangas]

I have tried using this and if I set it at 80% and the student scores 85% on the assignment 11 days late there is a 5% late penalty. However, in our campus policy, the grade would have been a 65%. (2% per day up to a maximum of 20%). I am looking for a maximum deduction instead of the minimum possible grade.

It would be nice to have all three options available.

Interval deductions

lowest possible

Maximum deductions

[Steven_S]

Some schools my require a minimum grade other than zero, and for others setting this to zero may reassure some that their students will not receive a negative score in response to the late penalty.  I see no reason to remove the setting, but it would be very useful to be able to set a maximum deduction. 

 @jacob_white  Your example of a maximum deduction as a percent of the final score is an interesting adaptation of the minimum grade concept.  It means no matter how long the late submission period lasts, there would always be some points to be earned, just like with a minimum grade set higher than zero.  Unlike the minimum grade, there is never a point where any submission at all earns the maximum remaining score, and so students still have a reason to do their best.

I would like to also have the option to set a maximum deduction as a percent of the total points possible, as  @jack_mangas  suggests.  That would accommodate those who want their deduction to only apply once https://community.canvaslms.com/ideas/15335-flat-one-time-deduction-for-late-posting-policy" modifie..., and it would also accommodate many of the cases when I would skip weekends/holidays - although not quite in the way suggested by: https://community.canvaslms.com/ideas/14976-more-late-penalty-options" modifiedtitle="true" title="M....  (For example, I allow two days for a late submission with a 10% per day penalty, but want to give the students two school days for their submission without weekends or holidays raising the penalty excessively.  For an assignment due on Tuesday in a week where Thursday and Friday are holidays, I could set "available until" the following Monday, and my maximum late penalty deduction to 20%.  Students submitting on Wednesday would lose 10% of the maximum points available, and students submitting Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday or Monday would all lose 20% of the maximum possible points.)

[cohenf]

I don't understand "minimum grade" at all. A minimum grade is a floor below which no student can fall no matter how poorly he or she performs. Maximum deduction makes perfect sense, as it's the way I've always applied penalties for tardiness of work. I never heard of assigning students a "minimum grade." The way it is now, the "late" submission option is a lot less useful. If I make the minimum grade 50% and a student only gets 25% of the items correct, then the student is getting a higher grade than he or she has earned. My issue is that I want to go with my longstanding rule for late work, which is a maximum deduction of 50% because it leaves the student some incentive to always turn the work in.

[jacob_white]

I may have been a little unclear with the term "minimum grade."  When you set "Lowest possible grade percent" to 50, a student who gets 25% correct on a late assignment will still earn a grade of 25 (not 50) and a student who gets 50% on a late assignment will earn a grade of 50 (meaning neither suffered a penalty for being late) but a student who earns 100% on a sufficiently late assignment will get the same 50 grade as a similarly late student who only did half the work. Like yourself, I'd like the option to set a maximum deduction of 50% meaning a very late 100% assignment would be worth 50% and a very late 50% assignment would be worth 25%.

[Steven_S]

When you set "Lowest possible grade percent" to 50, a student who gets 25% correct on a late assignment will still earn a grade of 25 (not 50) and a student who gets 50% on a late assignment will earn a grade of 50 (meaning neither suffered a penalty for being late) but a student who earns 100% on a sufficiently late assignment will get the same 50 grade as a similarly late student who only did half the work.

Just from the title of the setting I would have guessed that Frank is correct about how a minimum grade works.  Have you tested it to confirm that the minimum grade is not the lowest score any student can earn?  It didn't even occur to me that it might work the way you describe.

Like yourself, I'd like the option to set a maximum deduction of 50% meaning a very late 100% assignment would be worth 50% and a very late 50% assignment would be worth 25%.

If your maximum deduction is 50% of the total grade, wouldn't a student earning a score of 50% on a very low assignment actually receive an adjusted grade of zero?  Currently late deductions are a percent of the total points possible.  There is a separate idea open to have deductions apply to a percent of the grade earned, which would produce the adjusted grade of 25% in this example.  https://community.canvaslms.com/ideas/13109-allow-marks-deductions-for-late-work-to-be-calculated-ba...

I like your main point here, however - the maximum point deduction is an important tool.  It allows an assignment to be left open longer without an excessive late penalty.  For example, I leave assignments unlocked for two school days after they are due.  If I set a 20% maximum penalty, then even when "two school days" includes a weekend, the most points students could lose is 20% of the total points (or I suppose of points awarded if the other idea is also added.)

[Steven_S]

While I do not personally use a minimum grade, I understand that some grade schools do this to prevent students from reaching a point where their grade is so low that they do not think it is worth continuing to try on later assignments.  (I'm not certain it really has the desired effect, since students will learn that they get a 40% for not trying or for trying and failing.  Students who expect to fail may not then think it is worth trying the current assignment at all.)  Whether a minimum grade is useful is not the point, however.  I don't mind retaining the option for those who use it, but adding an option for a maximum percent deduction would be far more useful in my own classes.

[cohenf]

cohenf@franklinpierce.edu wrote:

I don't understand "minimum grade" at all. A minimum grade is a floor below which no student can fall no matter how poorly he or she performs. Maximum deduction makes perfect sense, as it's the way I've always applied penalties for tardiness of work. I never heard of assigning students a "minimum grade." The way it is now, the "late" submission option is a lot less useful. If I make the minimum grade 50% and a student only gets 25% of the items correct, then the student is getting a higher grade than he or she has earned. My issue is that I want to go with my longstanding rule for late work, which is a maximum deduction of 50% because it leaves the student some incentive to always turn the work in.

I'm following up. I have students with the Lowest possible grade percent but with differing quality of work on many assignments.  This would not be an issue if "Lowest possible grade percent" were changed to "Maximum percentage deduction." I'm having to create a dummy assignment to give makeup points to those who performed best among the tardy submitters. The "late submission" function, as I'm discovering, is more trouble than it's worth. 

[cebre]

I agree with adding this feature idea! Our school's grading policy deducts an automatic percentage (-30% if turned in more than two weeks late) and the current automatic grading tool on Gradebook does not allow us to correctly grade late work.

For example, the following should occur:

• If a student turns in an assignment worth full credit, but more than two weeks late, the student should receive 70%
• If a student turns in an assignment worth 70%, but more than two weeks late, the student should receive 40%

The current settings mean that the second student gets as many points as the first, despite doing 30% less work.

[dpotts2]

This is a great suggestion. I would like to see it implemented!

[peaceam]

my school allows for each assignment, quiz, and test to have a minimum f applied. is there a way in canvas to set this up so that I do not need to go into every grade and manually changed it to the minimum f grade?

thanks

[njrotella]

Please allow the late penalty to calculate a % deduction based on points earned, not the points available.  In my class I have a blanket 20% deduction for late work, with no cap to how long they have to turn in the assignment.  

There are inherent inequalities within the system that Canvas is currently using.  The students that perform the best on late work are penalized the MOST.

Currently:

Student A submits a 10 point assignment late and gets a 10/10 - Canvas knocks them down 20% to an 80%, which is my max deduction.

Student B submits a 10 point assignment late and gets a 9/10 - Canvas knocks them down 10% to an 80%, which is my max deduction.

Student C submits a 10 point assignment late and gets a 7/10 - Canvas takes no deduction because their 70% is already under my 80% maximum deduction.

Ideally:

Student A submits a 10 point assignment late and gets a 10/10 - Canvas knocks them down to an 80% (80% of the 100% they earned).

Student B submits a 10 point assignment late and gets a 9/10 - Canvas knocks them down to a 72% (80% of the 90% they earned).

Student C submits a 10 point assignment late and gets a 7/10 - Canvas knocks them down to a 56% (80% of the 70% they earned).

[gillham]

I too would love to see this suggestion implemented.

[abba_locke]

In Course Progress, you can set up Canvas to automatically reduce late assignments a certain percentage for each day something is late down to a certain percentage. It's a wonderful feature. However, the late deduction does not come off of the overall grade. In other words, If I have it set to reduce 5% a day down to 65%, but I then score something as earning a 65%, Canvas will not reduce the grade below 65% regardless of the fact that it may be late on top of earning a poor grade. I wish there was a way to have the late deduction come off of the grade the instructor gives the assignment.

[JessicaWallar]

I want to deducted points for late assignments. My district allows us to deduct up to 30% off, or give them a grade no less than 70% of their score if it is submitted late. I like the option to deduct in increments! My gradebook is set to deduct 10% per day. But then I get stuck, because there is not a stopping point to this. So I entered 70% as their lowest possible grade. If I don't set the lowest grade, then it will deduct 10% every day.

BUT that is not 70% of their grade, that is 70% as the lowest they can possibly make, so if a student makes a 50 and it is several days late, they will still score a 70. Instead of 70% of 50, which is what I need it to do. So they would actually receive a higher score than they made.

Please add another calculation that is something like "Do not deduct more than" so teachers can chose not to deduct more than 30%, or no more than 50%, or whatever their district/institution/personal late penalty would be. Surely there are lots of teachers who want to take off a percentage of the score for late work, but only up to a certain extent.

[JessicaWallar]

njrotella explained a major flaw in the system perfectly. Late penalties should be taken off of the points scored, not the points possible. I have been having to go back and regrade all of my late submissions.

[njrotella]

@JessicaWallar I appreciate the kudos.  I still keep up on this thread, the bad thing is that I posted that almost a year ago and 0 has been done.

[omari_r_sarjean]

Can the late penalty be per assignment? This would allow instructors to set it when they set the grading type and value. This way if you work at an institution where not all assignments qualify for late penalties, you don't lose the auto-grading feature.

This would also allow for more flexibility in the options available as different types of assignments could operate with different late rule. For example, some assignments like HW might be automatic 50% if late (it's a terrible rule, but it is the current state of secondary education), while others like a larger assignment might be 10% per day or 10% of max possible. 

Example:

Assignment 1: Example Assignment

Type: Points

Max Points: 100

Late Penalty: 10% , Once

(Penalty) [Score, % of Max, % of Earned Points]      (Frequency) [Once, Per Hour, Per Day, Per Week]

[brad_tebay]

Hello!  I would like to recommend a tweak to the grading policy by setting a maximum number of late days.  See attachment.  For example, our school deducts 2.5% per day with the lowest possible grade being 50%.  I would like to recommend an additional setting that allows only a certain number of late days so that only a certain total percentage is deducted.  Currently, I have to manually go in and change every "days late" on the assignment for each student and assignment.  

Brad 

[dellagostino]

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