Two Big, Substantive Problems with the Redesign

[william_simkule]

As I see it, there are 2 big, substantive big problems with the redesign:

I.  The redesign HIDES replies by default, making it unlikely students will read them!  This is effectively a negative nudge as even if students understand that they COULD read replies, hiding them by default makes it unlikely they will select that option, leading to them missing opportunities to recover lost points by addressing instructor or student comments.

2.  The redesign lists posts "last to first" rather than "first to last" by default.  Not only does this make locating individual posts difficult, but it buries any "Sample Posts" the instructors make at the bottom of the page.

Unmotivated or struggling students will often use the first post they see as a template, which is why I like to post "Sample Posts" (AND "Sample Replies") for the first few weeks of class demonstrating what an "A" quality post (and reply) might look like.  Before I adopted this practice, it wasn't uncommon for the first student post to be F quality, and a fairly large number of students copy the F-quality template.

Together, these changes effectively hobble the Discussion forums as a learning tool.  In fact, they hobble them as even a DISCUSSION tool.

Student A Post:  X

Student B Reply: ~X (unread)

This is not a discussion!  A discussion involves two or more people exchanging ideas, but if Student A walks away after saying "X" and Student B walks away after saying "~X" then student B might as well just be talking to a wall.

Are there benefits to the redesign?  Frankly, I don't see any, but whatever the benefits, they don't excuse the drawbacks.  Discussion assignments used to be the backbone of my online Canvas courses.  Now?  They're a detriment; even if I drastically reduce the Discussion component of the course, I'm going to have a lot more students failing because Canvas actively makes it harder for them to complete the discussion assignment and easy for to mistake a halfassed mid-week post for a template.

Let's face facts; many students don't even bother to read the assignment instructions, but instead use other posts as templates.  Struggling or motivated students used to be able to use Sample Posts as good templates and regularly receive passing (C+) grades, but now?  Now I'll be handing out a bunch of Fs.  And it'll be the students' fault for not reading the instructions or reaching out for help.  But the discussion redesign enabled and encouraged this bad behavior.

[dspiel]

and they need to remove pages and have all comments on a running thread. Students will rarely look at anything other than the initial page.

[smithr2]

I agree. I feel like the redesign is making discussions more difficult for students to interact and less substantive. I was happy to be able to turn off the redesign in the course settings, but I understand that will end on July 20. I wish we could at least have the option to use the previous design.

[lshulman]

@smithr2 

Yes, keep BOTH formats as an OPTION for instructors to choose. Same as "new quizzes" has remained an option for years now since being introduced.

[lshulman]

Part of the solution to students using earlier bad posts as templates for their own, as well as forcing them to read directions before posting, would be to check the option for "must post before seeing other posts".

[william_simkule]

The "must post before seeing other posts" actually compounds the problem; remember the students at risk here are the struggling, time-crunched, or lazy students who likely haven't read the instructions carefully.  Inevitably this leads to even worse posts as students will confuse an academic discussion assignment with... social media in general, posting short, vacuous claims that fail to complete the assignment instructions.

I post Sample Posts for the first few weeks of class to give students an example of what they should be striving for, not unlike how dictionaries define a term and then GIVE EXAMPLES of the term in use to help readers understand the definition.

In short, HIDING things is not a good academic practice.  Discussion forums are supposed to be interactive, with students and teachers discussing things, raising ideas, and challenging those ideas.  Hiding a post, even temporarily or behind clicking a button, discourages student participation.

Maybe you think these students SHOULD fail because they failed to read the instructions, or failed to put effort in.  But that just discourages students more.

[lshulman]

Of course I don't think students "should fail" because they don't read directions (though they should fail if they fail to put in the effort)!

Some discussions I use "post before seeing," others I don't use it. Depends on the purpose or intent for the discussion.

One purpose for using it is so students give original ideas rather than having their thoughts influenced by what others have said before them. THEN they are to read and reply to what others have said. Also not fair if students reply to others without making their own initial post for others to reply to. In these discussions, I also give more credit for initial posts than for replies.

In a "Q&A" context, I do allow them to read other posts before posting. I don't want them posting duplicate questions so I ask them to first scan existing posts to avoid duplication. Also, allow replies (answer other questions) is OK before asking their own question. 

May also depend on the academic level of students as to if they treat these discussions more like social media posts. Maybe High School level do this more than my college level students do. But if a student does make irrelevant posts that do not meet expectations I will offer feedback reiterating what they are to do and to "try again".  Sure, repeating such feedback to multiple students can be tedious. But I don't get a lot of completely irrelevant posting. 

[william_simkule]

The point is that the redesign takes away substantive instructor options.

That some of your discussion assignments haven't been hurt by the change doesn't matter; what matters is that many of the discussion assignments of instructors have been hobbled by this change.

When a change beings no benefits and only drawbacks, it's a problem.

[yfan]

Agree 100%! I always post first as the instructor, providing a sample post. So students know what to expect in the post. The sample post is always on top, together with the rubrics provided, has been working really well for students.

"must post before seeing other posts" is not a good option. In addition to the concerns shared above, this option also caused some confusion for students. Some (who does not pay much attention around Canvas functionality) get in late for discussion just thought no one has participated discussion so far. And it is due in the next hour.

[lshulman]

<late for discussion just thought no one has participated discussion so far. And it is due in the next hour.>

@yfan 

I had not thought of that. Basically, seems like everyone else is waiting for someone to be "first to post" and few students like to be "first to post".

Although there is an automatic note that "students must post before seeing other replies". And I do put a bold and highlighted note about this in my discussion directions. And, when a discussion is closed and some students did not participate, I do leave a note with their zero grade reminding them that they need to post, even if they don't see any other posts yet. ("once you make your own initial posts, then you will see others to reply to")

[dspiel]

We have many faculty who use the can't see before posting as they want to make sure the content is original. They specifically state that is the case within the outline and requirements for the assignment. Some postings don't need an instructor to post anything of relevance so that would just add more work and time to a workflow that isn't necessary as we require more and more from them. Once faculty member has gone as far as to give whomever posts first and extra x amount of points or doesn't require them to reply to another students post as an incentive for students to start posting early. It is also important to turn off the edit feature as some students put in a "." just to see what everyone else posted and then goes back to type something better.

I haven't tested to be positive, but students should be able to see how many posts have been made within a discussion as well by looking in the upper right corner.

[SuzieW]

I am hearing from multiple faculty and agree that discussion replies (threads) should be expanded/visible by default! Students are much less likely to engage in replies when they need to click more buttons. Could the threads be expanded by default and the button be set to collapse threads instead of vice versa? Or remove the button and allow collapsing on individual threads? At least allow instructors the option in discussion settings to have replies expanded by default. However, I definitely think this should be the system default.

[wking]

I completely agree with your thoughts. 

I have been using Canvas at various institutions for over a decade. 

I can't think of a single "value-add" to this new discussion forum. Sure--you can sort from "old-new" and "new-old", but this feature could have simply been added to the existing layout and format. 

The amount of scrolling, scrolling, AND SCROLLING you now have to do to get through the forum is atrocious. The split-screen is cluttered and clunky. By creating it, Canvas is admitting that they've created a massive problem with the layout and functionality of the discussion. "Oh, yes. We know it's impossible to use, but look! A split-screen!"