Allow folders in Pages

[hasti]

The Files section of Canvas allows folders for organizing files. Pages does not. Why the awful inconsistency in the user interface? I currently have 30+ pages that I've created in - all in flat directory structure. I'd like to be able to organize them, you know, like Files and stuff I have on my computer.

Comments from Instructure

Please refer to the update from the product team here. 

[laurakgibbs]

Oh, I love it!!!!! Mwahahaha. The great secret of the world revealed!!! Thank you,  @scottdennis ‌!

And yes, using Modules as folders can work... but I think there's still the "next" button at the bottom of each item in a Module, is that right? I'm not even sure I'm remembering that correctly, so I need to go look, ha ha. Yes, I thought I remember that: the order of content in modules has the automatic next/back buttons at the bottom, while the Pages area is built as a true wiki, without a linear structure... but unfortunately, the Pages area of Canvas has none of the OTHER organizing features that help keep a non-linear space from turning into complete chaos. I'm a fan of chaos myself... up to a point! I really like the way folders work in my PBWiki, and of course Wikipedia has developed all kinds of navigational organizers to help associate pages with one another in different ways.

And now I have to go share this cat with my classes! 🙂

Here's a cat back at you... the world-cat is my kind of creativity. 

[scottdennis]

Nice!  I like that one.  For some reason, it reminds me of the knowledge/wisdom/philosophy analogy about tomatoes.

You're correct I think that the Next and Previous buttons do imply linear progression.  I remember when they were added to make navigation easier for people thumbing back and forth on a tablet.

[laurakgibbs]

And they are also not distracting, which is great! That's why I couldn't even remember for sure if they were there or not. I definitely believe in make good use of the bottom of a page, especially if the expectation is that the student really is going to read the whole page. 🙂

I love that one about the tomatoes. It's the one about the fruit salad right? Ha ha. I use that in my classes too. 🙂

[scottdennis]

Right! philosophy: wondering if ketchup is a fruit smoothie?

[laurakgibbs]

I love the world of Internet memes: proverbs for the new millennium. 🙂

[GideonWilliams]

Would be wonderful to have this facility in the Office365 LTI 

Would be even better if within the folder it showed files that we being shared with me by others!

[Boekenoogen]

This would be a great item for Instructure to do.  There are many applications for a folder on a page. 

[ronmarx]

Yes, kudos to josephkwashnak‌ for brining this idea to the community in 2015. There's not a day that goes by I don't wish for the ability to organize content pages outside of the modules area.

[kxcurran]

Def need this for my classes!

[ronmarx]

Surprised to see you taking this stance given your long history of viewing ideas with a bigger "community" lens. Folders in Pages would be a great organizational tool for teachers/designers, and not really intended for students.

[laurakgibbs]

At this point, I would advocate for a rethinking of the content ecosystem, much as Instructure has undertaken a big rethink of Gradebook and a big rethink of Quizzes. Those projects are reaching their conclusion; maybe content can be the next big project! (And a real content ecosystem would be a big boost to analytics also; analytics are going to be really impaired by the badly designed content ecosystem IMO.)

As time goes by, Pages look more and more neglected, and there seems to be no real content strategy overall. Rather than tinkering (giving us folders, fixing the ridiculous title-change problem), I think a big re-do with real resources is required.

And yes, I am still very bummed about the fact that there will not be search for pages. Even more than folders, I was thinking search might salvage some of the usefulness of Pages, both for students and instructors. It was the one Khaki feature that I was truly excited about, and it's been shelved indefinitely. 

But sooner or later, Instructure is going to have to do something about content.

And I vote for something sooner. And something BIG.

[GideonWilliams]

If pages go then I would be very concerned indeed. This was not what we signed up for! Must have the ability to create content native to the site and pull in the best bits from outside, preferably via dynamic links.

[laurakgibbs]

Hi  @bsnelearning ‌ I'm not saying they need to go away -- but rather than tinkering with the existing system of Pages and Files, I think it would help to step back and look at a redesigning them from the ground up based on what users indicate as priorities. I personally find the Files area terrible for real file management (I'm used to having real web directories where I can manage my assets and do basic editing), and I find the Pages area terrible for real content management (I'm used to working with blogs, wikis, and doc systems; more on that here). Canvas will need to have some file management and content management features, and I would rate Files and Pages as two of the weakest areas in the Canvas ecosystem... which is not surprising because resources have been dedicated to improving other areas of Canvas instead like quizzes and gradebook.

I was really surprised when I asked about the future of content features at Khaki last year and got no response; that gave me the impression that nobody at Instructure is really focused on this big question. Then, when the global search feature from Khaki got shelved, it seemed to me that there might be some serious legacy architecture problems involved (no surprise given the mismatch between Files and Pages). Admittedly, content management pretty much sucks in competing LMSes also... but wouldn't it be great if Instructure really had a VISION for content development and committed serious resources to that?

I sure would have a lot of ideas to put on the table. I really care about content in a way that quizzes and the gradebook are of zero interest to me. 🙂

[GideonWilliams]

Sound thinking and not before time. I also take your point about legacy architecture. There do seem to be a number of issues/areas/feature requests for improvement that are made on the basis that there was an expectation that they should be there in the first place rather than a development on the existing system eg folders, sub modules, external links, non-marking rubrics to name but four. I find myself reading the monthly updates features in hope rather than expectation. I personally would like to see a regular update feature that is based on improvements to teaching and learning and not style changes, which are of zero interest to me 🙂

Maybe we should put our ideas together (with a few other like minded soles). It is sometimes a little lonely on this side of the Atlantic!

[laurakgibbs]

Ha ha, I hear you  @GideonWilliams ! It is always lonely when you are at the INTERSECTION of ed and tech, trying to keep up with the tech without leaving the ed behind!

That's why I am so glad for Canvas Community; no matter how lonely things might be at our institutions, we can connect and share here. It's a night-and-day difference from the LMS we had previously (D2L). We were on that for over 10 years, and I had so many questions, ideas I wanted to share, on and on and on, but there was no way to do that at my school and there was no way for me to connect with D2L users at other schools. Much less on other continents! 🙂

I know that my own interests and priorities are eccentric when it comes to LMS use, but at the same time I am sure that eventually Instructure is going to do something about Pages and Files, and when that happens, they will be soliciting input from the Community, and I am glad that I will be able to make contributions from an educator's point of view when that time does come. You can be sure my comments will be framed in terms of teaching and learning. Like the simple mantra of "student choice and voice" which tells me that we should be thinking just as hard about student-created content as we are thinking about top-down instructor content. 🙂

[scottdennis]

Hey Laura,

Just out of curiosity, did you ever attempt to join/interact with the D2L user community?  I only ask in case there are any take aways or things we could be doing better from a community management standpoint?

[laurakgibbs]

Yes,  @scottdennis ‌, I did! For a while they ran an online D2L community space where your log-on was separate from your D2L log-on and your username was not even your email; every time I tried to use it I had to get a reminder about my log-on and password ha ha. And once I got in there, not much was going on. More importantly: since it was totally closed like that, my motivation to participate was non-existent. The reason I participate here and blog here is because the content is OPEN to all, and I can share it with everybody, even people who might not be interested in actually participating in the Community themselves, but can still use the info we share. Did you see  @Bobby2 ‌'s thing about analytics here at Jive? So cool: we get tons of guest views if I understand correctly how that works:

Insights - Pay it forward in the Canvas Community 

But eventually D2L hired the great Barry Dahl to bring their community efforts into focus. I like him so much! So, I am guessing good things may be going on now, thanks to Barry. Although I suspect it might be too little, too late. But that's just a guess; I was so ready to move on from D2L by the time we switched to Canvas at my school and I have not kept up with any D2L news since we switched.

And here's another big difference between D2L and Canvas: because there was no community space in which to share my thoughts about D2L over the years, I would share those thoughts in public, and my thoughts were often critical -- in a constructive way, but definitely critical. And instead of getting anything positive from D2L in response, I just got either no response at all, or negative pushback.

Contrast that with Canvas: when I would write about LMSes in general or about my Canvas experiences (as a user in Canvas-based cMOOCs, before my school was even using Canvas), Jared Stein, Brian Whitmer, and others from Instructure would sometimes participate in the public discussion (at Twitter or Google+ or at my blog)... how awesome is that? Instructure's real interest in hearing from users was something I never got from John Baker or the crew at D2L, and it made a huge impression on me. Even someone with what is definitely a minority viewpoint can be part of the Canvas conversation. Now THAT is motivating!

[scottdennis]

Hey Laura,

I agree whole heartedly about Barry Dahl.  I've never actually gotten to meet him face to face but I've followed him for years and had the opportunity to speak with him on the phone once.  Definitely a great guy.

I liked Bobby's post when I first read it.  If I ever get the chance to do a doctoral thesis I want to do something around the premise that people intrinsically want to help other people and if they can do it without it costing them much, even if they don't benefit directly they will because it is basic human nature.  Couple that with massive distributed networks that allow people with a common interest or interests to connect with each other.  Many many micro kindnesses add up to a massive public good if we could only quantify it.  People talk a lot about the isolating nature of the Internet but I would argue the opposite is also true.

I had a very similar experience in getting to know Instructure and Canvas in my first contacts and its a big part of why I am where I am today.

That all being said, if we can make the community experience better, please let us know.

[laurakgibbs]

You know I will!

And I think that sounds like a fabulous research project. Also an important one. 🙂

[scottdennis]

People bandy around terms like "3rd Industrial Revolution" but I betting that historians will be able to quantify a bump in productivity and maybe general happiness (although that is harder to measure) based on our shared ability to problem solve and learn from each other in massive communities.  I heard on the radio this morning that over the past however many years the sadness measurement in popular music has trended up but I think that is only part of the story.